Malaysian Airlines MH370 contact lost
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Originally Posted by Backseat Dane
The TPL from the USN is that the only one in the whole wide world?
Just a reminder that only one ULB was eventually retrieved after the wreckage was finally located using side-scan sonar, and that was found to have never worked.
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They have announced things that turned out to be incorrect (let's look in the Gulf of Thailand!) and denied things that turned out to be correct
Gulf of Thailand had to be searched based on early available data, based on what Vietnamese were saying, based on spotted oil slicks, etc.
Only about 5 days after the accident the consensus was growing that the plane flew much longer in different direction.
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... because hindsight is always 20/20 ? I agree with you completely but I doubt anyone would even know to ask ... hey USN.. do you have a TPL 25 I can borrow for a couple weeks?
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The central issue remains unchanged: the final search was much more no-stone-unturned effort, intended to cover the whole area if necessary, because the previous target searches had failed.
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Originally Posted by olasek
No, the central issue was this: through mathematical work they managed to shrink the search area to something manageable.
Last edited by mm43; 31st Mar 2014 at 19:43.
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MM43
The TPL is a sort of torpedo-shaped device. Is the 1730m looking along the front centreline, or what? If you think of the search as needing a 'lawn-mower' - i.e. searching in strips - then we'd need to know the strip width and, in hilly terrain, the sensitivity in the vertical axis.
The detection range of the TPL looking for a 37.5kHz ULB is 1730 meters when aiming for a 90% reliability of detection.
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Security tightened in cockpits, airports in Malaysia...
Malaysian authorities have issued new security instructions ordering that the pilot and co-pilot are not allowed to be left alone in the cockpit, even when one of them is taking a toilet break. A cabin crew member has to be in the cockpit until the pilot or co-pilot returns from the restroom.
When bringing food to the cockpit, a flight attendant is required to stand guard at the door to make sure no passenger enters the restricted area.
On the ground, MAHB has made it mandatory for anyone taking an international flight to pass through two metal-detectors and undergo a body search before they board.
The travellers must now also remove their shoes, belt, jackets and any electronic devices such as cellphones and laptop computers for separate scanning.
Bottled drinking water is not allowed to be brought aboard.
Missing MH370 plane: Security tightened in cockpits, airports in Malaysia - The Economic Times
When bringing food to the cockpit, a flight attendant is required to stand guard at the door to make sure no passenger enters the restricted area.
On the ground, MAHB has made it mandatory for anyone taking an international flight to pass through two metal-detectors and undergo a body search before they board.
The travellers must now also remove their shoes, belt, jackets and any electronic devices such as cellphones and laptop computers for separate scanning.
Bottled drinking water is not allowed to be brought aboard.
Missing MH370 plane: Security tightened in cockpits, airports in Malaysia - The Economic Times
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MM43
The TPL is a sort of torpedo-shaped device. Is the 1730m looking along the front centreline, or what? If you think of the search as needing a 'lawn-mower' - i.e. searching in strips - then we'd need to know the strip width and, in hilly terrain, the sensitivity in the vertical axis.
The TPL is a sort of torpedo-shaped device. Is the 1730m looking along the front centreline, or what? If you think of the search as needing a 'lawn-mower' - i.e. searching in strips - then we'd need to know the strip width and, in hilly terrain, the sensitivity in the vertical axis.
I'm not sure everyone appreciates how big a haystack it is. Uncertainty in the course and speed means that one pass along the arc (without any extremes, just hitting all areas already searched) would be ~1000 nm long. At the maximum towing speed of 5 knots, it takes 8 days to do one sweep.
Now suppose that the aircraft flew for an unknown amount of time between 0 and 20 minutes after the last ping, with the speed of ~400 knots. That would put it between 0 and 250 km from the arc. To cover the entire area with 2*1730 m strips, we need 70 passes, which, at 8 days per pass, would take 1.5 years.
I haven't even begun to consider that the arc itself may be only known with precision up to 100 km (or worse), that the aircraft could have continued flying close to an hour after the last ping (if it had fuel for that), and that it could have glided possibly as far as another 200 km in a random direction after its engines went out.
In this situation, odds of stumbling upon a working pinger without knowing the location of the debris field are so low that SAR understandably tried to find some debris first, then call in the TPL. Calling in the TPL now is a hail mary, with no realistic expectation of it finding anything.
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SATCOM disablement is another story however. There is no off switch and one must leave the flight deck and go down below and pull a couple of circuit breakers. This is not covered in pilot training and would be most likely accomplished with the help of a maintenance engineer, should the need arise.
As others have stated, even the satellite operator, Inmarsat, was not fully aware of the locational aspects available via mathematical wizardry, so it seems entirely reasonable that a sinister element, be it a rogue pilot or third party interlopers, would be unaware of the capability and despite all efforts to evade detection, did not bother to disable this system. In your scenario involving foul play, this omission could be chalked up to a lack of knowledge, or an unwillingness to venture outside of the cockpit.
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Malaysian authorities have issued new security instructions ordering that the pilot and co-pilot are not allowed to be left alone in the cockpit, even when one of them is taking a toilet break. A cabin crew member has to be in the cockpit until the pilot or co-pilot returns from the restroom.
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Ping timing...
Although the timing of the last few pings does support a relatively straight line flight , surely it is not the only solution ...????....... The last four complete pings only really show that the source was south of the equator , and in an hour moved about 186 nm further Eastward/further from the satellite's longitude. , then another 240 some nm East during the next hour , and then about 266 nm in the following hour . This could mean a crippled aircraft was flying slowly SSE but turning gently left to end up flying East ........putting it in the sea somewhere between the equator and 10 degrees South latitude.....??....
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Excerpts from AF 447 Report by BEA
From a volume of the BEA reports on AF 447:
http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol....11.2012.en.pdf
"As a rule, acoustic searches should always be preferred during the transmission time of the beacons. They are more effective than searches using sonar, magnetometers or video cameras.
The maximum range of these beacons is of the order of 2,000 to 3,000 m. However, in the search area the average depth was 3,000 m. It was therefore necessary to bring the hydrophones closer to the source of transmission, by towing specialized equipment nearer to the seabed."
"The TPL20 and TPL40 systems are deep-towed devices belonging to the family of the “Towed Pinger Locators” manufactured by Phoenix International for the US Navy. The United States government made both the equipment and the associated operators freely available to the French government (17 people distributed on the two ships). In June 2009 the TPLs were the only systems capable of carrying out passive acoustic searches over large areas at significant depths.
The two TPLs are towed devices each equipped with an omni-directional hydrophone which can operate down to depths of six thousand metres with towing speeds ranging from 1.5 to 5 knots. They can be installed on all types of appropriate vessels capable of carrying a load weighing around 25 tonnes. A mapping software application uses GPS positioning information to follow the ship’s movements and the position of the towed device. The latter is equipped with a pressure sensor that permanently transmits the immersed device’s approximate depth of submersion. Management of the deployed cable length and ship towing speed is used to place the acoustic sensor at the required average submersion depth For example, an average submersion depth of 2,300 m for the TPL is achieved by deploying approximately 6,000 m of cable at a towing speed of 3 knots. "
"The immersion depth of the acoustic sensor induces high mechanical constraints on the self-supporting electro-cable; limiting these constraints restricts the manoeuvring capabilities of the ship. The speed is limited to 4 kt maximum, and bearing changes are restricted to a few degrees
As an indication, under these conditions an area 30 NM long and 10 nm wide was covered in a little less than 5 days. Within this area a longitudinal pass was carried out in 9 hours, followed by a reverse phase lasting approximately 5 hours. One branch was therefore completed in 14 hours. Long passes were preferred to avoid the multiplication of reversal operations. "
"The searches took place in a particularly unfavourable environment due to the great variations in depth in the area and the extremely uneven topography of the sea bed. The bathymetric data available to the search teams in June 2009 (see the figure below) was of limited accuracy, since the seabed in the area was little known.
Each flight data recorder was equipped with an underwater locator beacon transmitting on 37.5 kHz (± 1 kHz). In this type of search, priority should be initially given to acoustic searches by passive devices (hydrophones), taking into account an average range of between 2,000 and 3,000 m.
Given their limited range and the average depth in the area (3,000 m), listening from the surface was not possible. It was therefore necessary to bring the hydrophones closer to the source of transmission, by towing specialized TPLs near the seabed. "
"A report(24) details the examination of the CVR ULB. The damage to the body of the ULB was due to the impact. The characterization of the acoustic signal from the ULB made on the day of the examination was not nominal, despite the renewal of the power source (new battery).
This examination more than two years after the accident is not conclusive because it is impossible to decide on the level of damage to the ULBs that equipped the aeroplane and their ability to nominally transmit a signal in the aftermath of the accident.
24) http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol....ion.report.pdf "
Others have posted this link, which includes specs on the TPL:
Phoenix International Holdings Inc, Marine Services and Subsea Technology: ROV | DIVING | SHIPS HUSBANDRY
http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol....11.2012.en.pdf
"As a rule, acoustic searches should always be preferred during the transmission time of the beacons. They are more effective than searches using sonar, magnetometers or video cameras.
The maximum range of these beacons is of the order of 2,000 to 3,000 m. However, in the search area the average depth was 3,000 m. It was therefore necessary to bring the hydrophones closer to the source of transmission, by towing specialized equipment nearer to the seabed."
"The TPL20 and TPL40 systems are deep-towed devices belonging to the family of the “Towed Pinger Locators” manufactured by Phoenix International for the US Navy. The United States government made both the equipment and the associated operators freely available to the French government (17 people distributed on the two ships). In June 2009 the TPLs were the only systems capable of carrying out passive acoustic searches over large areas at significant depths.
The two TPLs are towed devices each equipped with an omni-directional hydrophone which can operate down to depths of six thousand metres with towing speeds ranging from 1.5 to 5 knots. They can be installed on all types of appropriate vessels capable of carrying a load weighing around 25 tonnes. A mapping software application uses GPS positioning information to follow the ship’s movements and the position of the towed device. The latter is equipped with a pressure sensor that permanently transmits the immersed device’s approximate depth of submersion. Management of the deployed cable length and ship towing speed is used to place the acoustic sensor at the required average submersion depth For example, an average submersion depth of 2,300 m for the TPL is achieved by deploying approximately 6,000 m of cable at a towing speed of 3 knots. "
"The immersion depth of the acoustic sensor induces high mechanical constraints on the self-supporting electro-cable; limiting these constraints restricts the manoeuvring capabilities of the ship. The speed is limited to 4 kt maximum, and bearing changes are restricted to a few degrees
As an indication, under these conditions an area 30 NM long and 10 nm wide was covered in a little less than 5 days. Within this area a longitudinal pass was carried out in 9 hours, followed by a reverse phase lasting approximately 5 hours. One branch was therefore completed in 14 hours. Long passes were preferred to avoid the multiplication of reversal operations. "
"The searches took place in a particularly unfavourable environment due to the great variations in depth in the area and the extremely uneven topography of the sea bed. The bathymetric data available to the search teams in June 2009 (see the figure below) was of limited accuracy, since the seabed in the area was little known.
Each flight data recorder was equipped with an underwater locator beacon transmitting on 37.5 kHz (± 1 kHz). In this type of search, priority should be initially given to acoustic searches by passive devices (hydrophones), taking into account an average range of between 2,000 and 3,000 m.
Given their limited range and the average depth in the area (3,000 m), listening from the surface was not possible. It was therefore necessary to bring the hydrophones closer to the source of transmission, by towing specialized TPLs near the seabed. "
"A report(24) details the examination of the CVR ULB. The damage to the body of the ULB was due to the impact. The characterization of the acoustic signal from the ULB made on the day of the examination was not nominal, despite the renewal of the power source (new battery).
This examination more than two years after the accident is not conclusive because it is impossible to decide on the level of damage to the ULBs that equipped the aeroplane and their ability to nominally transmit a signal in the aftermath of the accident.
24) http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol....ion.report.pdf "
Others have posted this link, which includes specs on the TPL:
Phoenix International Holdings Inc, Marine Services and Subsea Technology: ROV | DIVING | SHIPS HUSBANDRY
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CNN is finally displaying a map that shows the 25 degree right turn correction reported (here!) as by FR24, but ignored by CNN (many tweets to them) and almost everyone else.
I expect this new diagram, which of course adds some new meaning to the piloting aspect, may finally become the official track before long. (the right turn was of course before the left turn already depicted).
(p.s. to those suggesting a US Naval aircraft carrier should be tasked to Australia to help. --unfortunately in today's troubled world, ALL the carriers are suitably employed elsewhere for considered good cause.)
I expect this new diagram, which of course adds some new meaning to the piloting aspect, may finally become the official track before long. (the right turn was of course before the left turn already depicted).
(p.s. to those suggesting a US Naval aircraft carrier should be tasked to Australia to help. --unfortunately in today's troubled world, ALL the carriers are suitably employed elsewhere for considered good cause.)
Last edited by rigbyrigz; 31st Mar 2014 at 21:22. Reason: add p.s.
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Malaysian authorities have issued new security instructions ordering that the pilot and co-pilot are not allowed to be left alone in the cockpit, even when one of them is taking a toilet break. A cabin crew member has to be in the cockpit until the pilot or co-pilot returns from the restroom.
When bringing food to the cockpit, a flight attendant is required to stand guard at the door to make sure no passenger enters the restricted area.
On the ground, MAHB has made it mandatory for anyone taking an international flight to pass through two metal-detectors and undergo a body search before they board.
The travellers must now also remove their shoes, belt, jackets and any electronic devices such as cellphones and laptop computers for separate scanning.
Bottled drinking water is not allowed to be brought aboard.
Missing MH370 plane: Security tightened in cockpits, airports in Malaysia - The Economic Times
When bringing food to the cockpit, a flight attendant is required to stand guard at the door to make sure no passenger enters the restricted area.
On the ground, MAHB has made it mandatory for anyone taking an international flight to pass through two metal-detectors and undergo a body search before they board.
The travellers must now also remove their shoes, belt, jackets and any electronic devices such as cellphones and laptop computers for separate scanning.
Bottled drinking water is not allowed to be brought aboard.
Missing MH370 plane: Security tightened in cockpits, airports in Malaysia - The Economic Times
But at the second screening at the gate, the inspections have been much more thorough... I've seen plenty of bottles, containers, and other paraphernalia confiscated. It has also been mandatory over the total of more than 6 years that I flew out of KLIA to remove laptops and electronics, and remove coats for separate scanning. Bottled water, a cup of coffee or a canned soda has never been allowed through the boarding gate in all the time that I've flown through KLIA.
Edited to add: If one failed to pass the scanner at the gate, then a "body search" did ensue, consisting of a hand scan and sometimes a pat down. But like virtually every other body search I've undergone, they are relatively ineffective because to find well hidden contraband, the search must be much more intrusive.
This nonsense of removing belts and shoes is unfortunate... I've seen it only in the US and in the Philippines, and I don't see the point in this implementation.
Last edited by StrongEagle; 31st Mar 2014 at 22:04. Reason: Spelling Correction
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My airline required an fa in the flight deck if a pilot left it for any reason in flight. This was for several reasons : So we could respond to and signal for help if the pilot became incapacitated for any reason, so we could defend the flight deck, or at least slow down the person in case some one actually got through the door, so we could assist the pilot if directed in the case of a critical emergency, keep the pilot alert , especially in overnight and long haul flights with little communication from ATC. We do know where emergency equipment and extra firefighting equipment is in the flight deck. We also knew how to make pa's, interphone calls and how to use the pilots oxygen system. In the light of pilot/ crew suicide or hijacking scenerios I think that new communication signalling procedures need to be created even if it means separate briefings between The captain, first officer and purser. As it stands the current policy is less about preventing suspicious behaviour in the other pilot though it might discourage them or distract them.
As to Fa's not being able to fight someone off, you might be surprised, I could throw a 6 foot man over my back when I was 7 and I am a women. It's true that most cabin crew are not trained pilots, but there are actually quite a few of them who have commercial and private liscences, who work as cabin crew while also building up there hours in other jobs. I've worked flights where I've had two of them on board.
As to Fa's not being able to fight someone off, you might be surprised, I could throw a 6 foot man over my back when I was 7 and I am a women. It's true that most cabin crew are not trained pilots, but there are actually quite a few of them who have commercial and private liscences, who work as cabin crew while also building up there hours in other jobs. I've worked flights where I've had two of them on board.
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SSN wouldn't help
Due to changes in temperature at different depths, it's unlikely that the sound of a beacon a few thousand meters deep would be detected by a submarine at a couple of hundred meters depth. The sound tends to radiate at about the same depth, which is good in that it doesn't decay as fast horizontally, but in this case would keep the sub from hearing it. Nice idea, but it just wouldn't work.
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Tony Abbott says that the best minds are at work on this. Given that a pilot suicide is one scenario that fits, wouldn't it be sensible to get a savvy psychologist or two on the job? It's obvious by now that if this was an intentional act, then hiding the evidence was part of that intention. What SAR and technical people keep honing in on is finding physical evidence based on physical data. How about bringing some decent psychological evidence into play? If a person is responsible for this tragedy and he/she wanted to hide the evidence, I'm guessing that causing the minimal damage possible in ditching is one factor. But where would such a mind choose to do it? Away from shipping and flight routes I guess, but where in that ocean is the best hiding place?
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How about bringing some decent psychological evidence into play?
First of all psychologists know nothing about flying, secondly they are notoriously wrong about many things that involve human mind. Third, they typically deal in generalities.
Eclectic ..
This has been banded about on Twitter, It is of course a complete fake. The GPS co-ordinates can be manually inserted to the Exif data. Also the raw data indicated the photo has been modified.
This was the original post
https://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/27839190/
Another conspiracy theory: Freelance journalist: ?Hijacked flight 370 passenger sent photo from hidden iPhone tracing back to secret U.S. military base Diego Garcia? | Alternative
This was the original post
https://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/27839190/
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Well, the aviation and search professionals have assuredly milked all the available data but have narrowed the search to a huge version of "narrow" with no result. A wise psychological insight could well reduce that narrow and save a lot of time and money.