Malaysian Airlines MH370 contact lost
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mixture wrote:
Hey mixture? What do you think was in the cargo hold? 
Does this also mean that if the aircraft is never found that this thread will continue ad infinitum?
PLEASE !! Use the SEARCH function !!!
If I had a penny for every time someone asked that question, I'd be a billionaire by now !
If I had a penny for every time someone asked that question, I'd be a billionaire by now !
Does this also mean that if the aircraft is never found that this thread will continue ad infinitum?
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The inmarsat data is derived from ACARS pings.
The press releases say that ACARS had been deliberately switched off.
MAKE UP YOUR MIND.
Theory - ACARS can communicate via VHF and via satellite.
The VHF antenna or its cable were damaged (depressurisation or structural ?) but the ACARS unit was NOT switched off, it simply switched to using the satellite.
Either someone is lying or this takes us back to a catastrophic failure rather than human intervention.
The press releases say that ACARS had been deliberately switched off.
MAKE UP YOUR MIND.
Theory - ACARS can communicate via VHF and via satellite.
The VHF antenna or its cable were damaged (depressurisation or structural ?) but the ACARS unit was NOT switched off, it simply switched to using the satellite.
Either someone is lying or this takes us back to a catastrophic failure rather than human intervention.
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MH370
Southern Arc - Indonesia? Sometimes people can't see the wood for the trees. If northern route air defences are so good & it is believed it didn't go that way then perhaps it's on land and was landed very early in the process. Perhaps it's sitting right under their noses. I would not however, believe much of what the Malaysian government are saying based on performance so far. Perhaps somewhere quite close is where they need to look. There are enough radical groups in the SEA area for this to be a well thought out & prepared plan. This subject to of course no other country coming forward with radar information showing possible airspace incursion at the time.
Just my sixpence worth.
Just my sixpence worth.
@MPN11
Wot?!
Even with the nonsense they spouted about proving the FO was flying the aircraft, based on the FO apparently making the last RT call?
In the normal course of events, the FO making the call is a strong indication that he was PM, and it was in fact the captain who was PF.
There are of course a number of situations where the FO would be making RT calls as well as being PF, some perfectly innocent, others not. But would the reported calm, relaxed, even colloquial 'non-CAP413' style of the final call fit with the FO knowing that the captain had just become incapacitated for whatever reason?
BBC News just had a reasonably adult summary ...
Even with the nonsense they spouted about proving the FO was flying the aircraft, based on the FO apparently making the last RT call?In the normal course of events, the FO making the call is a strong indication that he was PM, and it was in fact the captain who was PF.
There are of course a number of situations where the FO would be making RT calls as well as being PF, some perfectly innocent, others not. But would the reported calm, relaxed, even colloquial 'non-CAP413' style of the final call fit with the FO knowing that the captain had just become incapacitated for whatever reason?
Rotate on this!
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PLEASE !! Use the SEARCH function !!!
If I had a penny for every time someone asked that question, I'd be a billionaire by now !
If I had a penny for every time someone asked that question, I'd be a billionaire by now !
For the love of God please just leave it to the mods.
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To the landing on the northern arc scenario:
Always add in a moonless night and most of the elctronic landing gadgets probably turned off. Sim experience mostly useless there, some real old school flying required.
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Who is that 'dude' on CNN who's supposed to be an instructor with UFly. Never heard of UFly, even less that they operated B777s. Goatie, silver neck chain, Tshirt. Couldn't they find someone professional to fly the simulator? 
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As much as I almost want to believe that this event stems from some organised/pre-planned hijack or 'terrorist' action, I keep coming back to day 1. Whether you want to believe it or not, it was reported at that early stage when it was fresh in everyone's mind that a pilot flying relatively close to this a/c did make contact and stated that amongst the static he heard munbling from 370's flight deck.
To me that is symptomatic of hypoxia or similar debilitating environment, howsoever caused.
No doubt, some people will say look at the facts, but these 'facts' appear to have started to now have some contradictions. My guess is that it is down, most likely in the ocean, back near (and i use that term loosely) its original path.
To me that is symptomatic of hypoxia or similar debilitating environment, howsoever caused.
No doubt, some people will say look at the facts, but these 'facts' appear to have started to now have some contradictions. My guess is that it is down, most likely in the ocean, back near (and i use that term loosely) its original path.
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pilotmike... ISTR it was the Malaysian speakers who said the FO was "in charge". I do understand the protocols, I assure you. In the past I have occasionally had to ask to speak to the captain 
My reference was to a BBC summary of many days of chaos and gibberish. Would anyone care to summarise this thread?
My reference was to a BBC summary of many days of chaos and gibberish. Would anyone care to summarise this thread?
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Turning off the transponder in-flight
I'm trying to sketch a workable technical solution that makes it all but impossible to go invisible the way MH370 did.
From the various comments, it's evident that there are indeed legal occasions where the transponder could be turned off in flight. Malfunctioning transmissions and equipment fire are the two main reasons. However, ALL these cases imply a coordination with ATC so that ATC is aware that the transponder is off.
Or can you think of any legal situation where the transponder can be switched off without making ATC aware of it? Please tell?
Now then for the solution sketch of handling the illegal use cases using a "Smart Circuit Breaker" at least for the transponder. This is a proposed "intelligent" CB networked with the plane's systems and ACARS. What it does is send alerts to ACARS as follows:
1) Manual intervention alert: If manually pulled, it breaks the current and sends a message to ACARS "CB123 for equipment xx was manually pulled at time yy:zz".
This is for the case that a) someone tries to illegally make the plane invisible, OR b) a fire or other event when the crew tries to manually isolate a faulty equipment.
2) Overcurrent alert: If triggered by overcurrent, it breaks the current and sends a message to ACARS "CB123 for equipment xx was triggered by overcurrent at time yy:zz".
This is the intended normal function of a circuit breaker, to protect the electrical system in case of a short circuit or similar.
3) Turn-off alert: For a smart CB associated with a piece of equipment that normally is never turned off in flight (such as a transponder) and triggered by current that stops flowing (or drops below some normal idle current), it sends a message to ACARS "CB123 for equipment xx was triggered by turn-off event at time yy:zz". In this case it will not break the circuit, just send the alert.
This is for the case that someone illegally turns off the transponder in-flight from the power button.
4) For a smart CB associated with communication-critical equipment such as ACARS itself, VHF,or Satcom, it waits for a certain delay to allow ACARS to transmit the alert message by VHF or Satcom to the outside world before breaking the circuit.
Summarizing: This solution allows manual depowering of the transponder, but will send out alert messages if done in-flight. Moreover, existing transponders would not need to be modified. The engineering challenge would then be to design a plug-in replacement for those existing CBs that would need to be replaced, as well as the interface to ACARS.
The complete solution obviously also must include software mods that will cause similar alert messages to be sent out if someone dectivates the ACARS in-flight. This sketch focused only on the transponder.
Doable? I think so. Just a daydream? I hope not. Good solution? You tell me.
From the various comments, it's evident that there are indeed legal occasions where the transponder could be turned off in flight. Malfunctioning transmissions and equipment fire are the two main reasons. However, ALL these cases imply a coordination with ATC so that ATC is aware that the transponder is off.
Or can you think of any legal situation where the transponder can be switched off without making ATC aware of it? Please tell?
Now then for the solution sketch of handling the illegal use cases using a "Smart Circuit Breaker" at least for the transponder. This is a proposed "intelligent" CB networked with the plane's systems and ACARS. What it does is send alerts to ACARS as follows:
1) Manual intervention alert: If manually pulled, it breaks the current and sends a message to ACARS "CB123 for equipment xx was manually pulled at time yy:zz".
This is for the case that a) someone tries to illegally make the plane invisible, OR b) a fire or other event when the crew tries to manually isolate a faulty equipment.
2) Overcurrent alert: If triggered by overcurrent, it breaks the current and sends a message to ACARS "CB123 for equipment xx was triggered by overcurrent at time yy:zz".
This is the intended normal function of a circuit breaker, to protect the electrical system in case of a short circuit or similar.
3) Turn-off alert: For a smart CB associated with a piece of equipment that normally is never turned off in flight (such as a transponder) and triggered by current that stops flowing (or drops below some normal idle current), it sends a message to ACARS "CB123 for equipment xx was triggered by turn-off event at time yy:zz". In this case it will not break the circuit, just send the alert.
This is for the case that someone illegally turns off the transponder in-flight from the power button.
4) For a smart CB associated with communication-critical equipment such as ACARS itself, VHF,or Satcom, it waits for a certain delay to allow ACARS to transmit the alert message by VHF or Satcom to the outside world before breaking the circuit.
Summarizing: This solution allows manual depowering of the transponder, but will send out alert messages if done in-flight. Moreover, existing transponders would not need to be modified. The engineering challenge would then be to design a plug-in replacement for those existing CBs that would need to be replaced, as well as the interface to ACARS.
The complete solution obviously also must include software mods that will cause similar alert messages to be sent out if someone dectivates the ACARS in-flight. This sketch focused only on the transponder.
Doable? I think so. Just a daydream? I hope not. Good solution? You tell me.
Satellite Pings
I see it now, had to sleep on this.
Satelllte ping says, Mary are you there, eight Mary's respond, because I know where Mary's 1 through 6 and Mary 8 are, the one I'm looking for must be Mary 7
Very Clever
I see it now, had to sleep on this.
Satelllte ping says, Mary are you there, eight Mary's respond, because I know where Mary's 1 through 6 and Mary 8 are, the one I'm looking for must be Mary 7
Very Clever
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This thread is growing faster than I can read...
Quote "the authorities think the last two pings came from the same location and that the last ping was on the ground." /Quote
Is that confirmed?
And - hasn't the BBC reporter who brought (I think) the story of the oil rigger stated that it turned out to be false? So why is this still discussed. I think we need a summary of the current facts and the possible implications.
We all know this is an unprecedented event, pilots, SLF and all other ones as well. And unprecedented in ALL aspects, the actual event and the reaction of the authorities, first and foremost Malaysia itself, which acts as if not coming clean fully.
Quote "the authorities think the last two pings came from the same location and that the last ping was on the ground." /Quote
Is that confirmed?
And - hasn't the BBC reporter who brought (I think) the story of the oil rigger stated that it turned out to be false? So why is this still discussed. I think we need a summary of the current facts and the possible implications.
We all know this is an unprecedented event, pilots, SLF and all other ones as well. And unprecedented in ALL aspects, the actual event and the reaction of the authorities, first and foremost Malaysia itself, which acts as if not coming clean fully.
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Air bubba,
VATSIM, you know it? You can check routes on there eh? What guys have flown ect
VATSIM, you know it? You can check routes on there eh? What guys have flown ect
See Researcher Says He's Found Hackable Flaws In Airplanes' Navigation Systems (Update: The FAA Disagrees) - Forbes for more on Teso’s test rig, but of interest is this extract:
‘Teso focused on a different protocol called Aircraft Communications Addressing and Report System, (ACARS) a simple data exchange system that has evolved over decades to now include everything from weather data to airline schedules to changes to the plane’s flight management system. (FMS)
Teso says that ACARS still has virtually no authentication features to prevent spoofed commands’.
‘Teso focused on a different protocol called Aircraft Communications Addressing and Report System, (ACARS) a simple data exchange system that has evolved over decades to now include everything from weather data to airline schedules to changes to the plane’s flight management system. (FMS)
Teso says that ACARS still has virtually no authentication features to prevent spoofed commands’.
I'm sure the network engineers will remind me that security and authentication can be added at the transport layer as with the Satcom transmissions discussed here. However, VHF ACARS is still usually sent in the clear with little security other than the formatting and some internal airline codes.
There are secure ACARS protocols available, in my observation, they are still not in common use:
Avionics Magazine :: Securing ACARS: Data Link in the Post-9/11 Environment
From the article above:
So far, ACARS messaging seems to have been relatively incident-free. "I don't think we've ever seen an instance of spoofing," comments Arnold Oldach, principal marketing manager for surveillance and data link products with Rockwell Collins Commercial Systems. (Spoofing is when an outsider is able to pose as the sender of a message.) The worst thing that has occurred, experts say, was the apparent decoding of an ACARS message about a passenger disturbance, which made its way into a newspaper.
ACARS mode: 2 Aircraft reg: .N468UA
Message label: 5Z Block id: 6 Msg. no: M07A
Flight id: UA0231
Message content:-
/C4 IADOAK TERRELL...CONT ON PAX
MAN HAS 35MM WITH A
ZOOM LENS...MIDDLE EAST
DESSENT...NOTED BY FA
AND CAP
CAP XXXX XXXXX
-------------------------------------[16/07/2002 08:12]
ACARS mode: 2 Aircraft reg: .N468UA
Message label: 5Z Block id: 0 Msg. no: M09A
Flight id: UA0231
Message content:-
/C4 IADOAK JOHN...I NOTICED HIS
ACTIVITY IN THE TERM...
TWO FA NOTICED HIS ACTIV
ON THE AIRCAFT DURING
TAXI OUT...RECMD FBI
BE ADVISED...GLEN
-------------------------------------[16/07/2002 08:24]
Message label: 5Z Block id: 6 Msg. no: M07A
Flight id: UA0231
Message content:-
/C4 IADOAK TERRELL...CONT ON PAX
MAN HAS 35MM WITH A
ZOOM LENS...MIDDLE EAST
DESSENT...NOTED BY FA
AND CAP
CAP XXXX XXXXX
-------------------------------------[16/07/2002 08:12]
ACARS mode: 2 Aircraft reg: .N468UA
Message label: 5Z Block id: 0 Msg. no: M09A
Flight id: UA0231
Message content:-
/C4 IADOAK JOHN...I NOTICED HIS
ACTIVITY IN THE TERM...
TWO FA NOTICED HIS ACTIV
ON THE AIRCAFT DURING
TAXI OUT...RECMD FBI
BE ADVISED...GLEN
-------------------------------------[16/07/2002 08:24]
The hack of simulated aircraft systems with an Android phone may have been an overstated media stunt and perhaps not a possibility with MH 370.
However, as we go more and more digital on the flight deck, this computer and digital comm stuff is a threat surface we really need to consider in my opinion.
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Also you could only shadow from radar in on direction., so if crossing air defence you are still likely to be picked up at radar overlap points.