SQ A380 emergency landing in Baku due to low cabin pressure
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Uncle Max
Correct, the 380 is no different to other airbus types in that respect.
You do 2 loops, as NoD said to start the thing going and then once established in the descent, refine it to what is applicable at the time, i.e. damage or no damage and also MSA considerations. This can include speedbrake and also manual deployment of the masks if the cabin altitude hasn't yet reached 14,000. It is not a mandatory item on the checklist, it is common sense if you suffer an explosive decompression, however if you can catch the cabin alt by expediting a descent then it is not required.
At a certain Middle East A380 operating airline, we also have guidelines for any areas of terrain that are likely to impact on Driftdown and Rapid Descent....
You're right Blowfish, if only they'd done it on 2 engines, mind you having just been a pax on an old version of the EK workhorse, with all the creaking, whining and loud hissing about the IFE not working, you probably wouldn't have heard the door go anyway and the temperature wouldn't have changed much
Correct, the 380 is no different to other airbus types in that respect.
You do 2 loops, as NoD said to start the thing going and then once established in the descent, refine it to what is applicable at the time, i.e. damage or no damage and also MSA considerations. This can include speedbrake and also manual deployment of the masks if the cabin altitude hasn't yet reached 14,000. It is not a mandatory item on the checklist, it is common sense if you suffer an explosive decompression, however if you can catch the cabin alt by expediting a descent then it is not required.
At a certain Middle East A380 operating airline, we also have guidelines for any areas of terrain that are likely to impact on Driftdown and Rapid Descent....
You're right Blowfish, if only they'd done it on 2 engines, mind you having just been a pax on an old version of the EK workhorse, with all the creaking, whining and loud hissing about the IFE not working, you probably wouldn't have heard the door go anyway and the temperature wouldn't have changed much
Last edited by Eau de Boeing; 6th Jan 2014 at 16:14. Reason: Jingly typo
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Nigel.
I am unable to refrain from pointing out that your quote of 3 mins above 20k is total
re brain damage.
http://cousin.pascal1.free.fr/AVMA%20etude%20decom.pdf
This rather unpleasant article would suggest that 3 mins at 60k is the threshold for total recovery.
I am unable to refrain from pointing out that your quote of 3 mins above 20k is total
re brain damage.http://cousin.pascal1.free.fr/AVMA%20etude%20decom.pdf
This rather unpleasant article would suggest that 3 mins at 60k is the threshold for total recovery.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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On behalf of Nigel, Tourist, I have to say read his post again and:
"I am unable to refrain from pointing out that your quote appears to be total"
Your paper actually quotes
"In animals breathing air, Lutz observed that a minimal survival time of 25 seconds was reached on decompression to 43,000 ft or above."
I can assure you that an explosive decomp at 60k empties your lungs pretty quickly and you will not 'recover' after 3 minutes - based on a chamber run from 20k to 56k. Remember also that pax are breathing 'air' supplemented with O2, not O2.
I would, however, take issue with Nigel on the prospects of "survive for a long time on Oxy Masks at cruise altitude" since the partial pressure of oxygen at that altitude is too low to support consciousness for very long on a pax mask and hence the need to get down PDQ.
"I am unable to refrain from pointing out that your quote appears to be total
"Your paper actually quotes
"In animals breathing air, Lutz observed that a minimal survival time of 25 seconds was reached on decompression to 43,000 ft or above."
I can assure you that an explosive decomp at 60k empties your lungs pretty quickly and you will not 'recover' after 3 minutes - based on a chamber run from 20k to 56k. Remember also that pax are breathing 'air' supplemented with O2, not O2.
I would, however, take issue with Nigel on the prospects of "survive for a long time on Oxy Masks at cruise altitude" since the partial pressure of oxygen at that altitude is too low to support consciousness for very long on a pax mask and hence the need to get down PDQ.
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Stuffing wet paper towels in the leaking door
That brings back memories, the downside of the cabin staff stuffing wet paper towels in the leaking doors of the 'Budgie' during winter in the Shetlands was when after landing the door was frozen and difficult to open. happy days
Last edited by Fangio; 6th Jan 2014 at 18:48.
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Hi BOAC
I did say "survive" 
Not necessarily conscious 
My point was not that anybody should or would stay @ Cruise Alt, but there is no massive urgency for those on Oxy.
Thanks for your reply to 'Tourist'... I would add that:
is not what I said... I said:
i.e. at a Cruise Alt (maybe >40K') and ~3mins, Brain Damage starts becoming a factor. I am not talking the young, fit or steely eyes fighter jock like BOAC, but the old / sick who might already be on supplementary oxygen at 8K' cabin alt. Thanks for the link anyway which I shall read...
I would, however, take issue with Nigel on the prospects of "survive for a long time on Oxy Masks at cruise altitude" since the partial pressure of oxygen at that altitude is too low to support consciousness for very long on a pax mask and hence the need to get down PDQ
Not necessarily conscious My point was not that anybody should or would stay @ Cruise Alt, but there is no massive urgency for those on Oxy.Thanks for your reply to 'Tourist'... I would add that:
I am unable to refrain from pointing out that your quote of 3 mins above 20k is total re brain damage.
...at cruise altitude, ... and 3mins to possible brain damage. Very roughly, once below 20K' the brain damage issue has gone. So you can see the priority...
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Door seal leaks are usually noisy to a greater or lesser degree - not normally a cause of depressurisation.I am not familiar with A380 door seals - is the seal shown displaced on the photograph the pressure seal or a dust seal as per 747?
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BOAC
It is rude to cherry pick a phrase to quote, when if you read the article that phrase obviously refers to teeny tiny critters, plus it says minimum. i.e. Even the most susceptible animals will survive that long.
There are many more valid references to monkeys/dogs which suggest much longer times of survival.
"In human beings, the potentially severe hypoxia encountered above 50,000 ft begins to become effective*ly reversed at the 50,000-ft level, improving rapidly with continued recompression to 40,000 ft or lower"
Oh, and yes I am very aware of crash decompression. I have dutifully farted my way through many Henlow post curry events.
It is rude to cherry pick a phrase to quote, when if you read the article that phrase obviously refers to teeny tiny critters, plus it says minimum. i.e. Even the most susceptible animals will survive that long.
There are many more valid references to monkeys/dogs which suggest much longer times of survival.
"In human beings, the potentially severe hypoxia encountered above 50,000 ft begins to become effective*ly reversed at the 50,000-ft level, improving rapidly with continued recompression to 40,000 ft or lower"
Oh, and yes I am very aware of crash decompression. I have dutifully farted my way through many Henlow post curry events.
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@ Eau de Boeing
Fact is that if with 2 or 4 donkeys, with that kind of failure, you'd have ended up at the same place.
That's what my jab was intended for: With all that bragging of being able to continue with 3 out of 4 donkeys, these fans forget that 90% of failures that force diversions are not related to the 2 or 4 question. Therefore my open question about the intelligence of continuing for long stretches over regions with airports as displayed! Especially with a behemouth that has limitations about the s#!t holes it can approach and the capabilities to deal with such a number of souls stranded, not to mention the support capabilities.
Additionally, take the statistics of inflight returns, diversion due to tech issues of the biggest ME whale operator compared to the other fleet and you come up with some stunning statistics. And then take the amount of units parked at any time at the maint hangar of both fleets and you'll come up with almost 10% for the super and 4% of the main fleet. These numbers should calm down the enthusiasm of "super"ior capability of this product.
It only cooks with the same "Eau" as the other flying cousins and should be considered that way. If we'd consider any components failure to extended operation certification, at this very moment the A380 would maybe have a 120' ticket, with its inflight incidents. It's a typical QED.
Fact is that if with 2 or 4 donkeys, with that kind of failure, you'd have ended up at the same place.
That's what my jab was intended for: With all that bragging of being able to continue with 3 out of 4 donkeys, these fans forget that 90% of failures that force diversions are not related to the 2 or 4 question. Therefore my open question about the intelligence of continuing for long stretches over regions with airports as displayed! Especially with a behemouth that has limitations about the s#!t holes it can approach and the capabilities to deal with such a number of souls stranded, not to mention the support capabilities.
Additionally, take the statistics of inflight returns, diversion due to tech issues of the biggest ME whale operator compared to the other fleet and you come up with some stunning statistics. And then take the amount of units parked at any time at the maint hangar of both fleets and you'll come up with almost 10% for the super and 4% of the main fleet. These numbers should calm down the enthusiasm of "super"ior capability of this product.
It only cooks with the same "Eau" as the other flying cousins and should be considered that way. If we'd consider any components failure to extended operation certification, at this very moment the A380 would maybe have a 120' ticket, with its inflight incidents. It's a typical QED.
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Reader comment from the DM on this incident:
and perhaps more sensibly:
I remember one particular flight once where the pilot had taken off too quickly and climbed too steep. As a result, ALL engines had cut out and the plane droped 1000ft in virtually no time at all, until the engines had come back. The autopilot was correcting the pilot's mistake, according to the pilot, but we never knew that until he came on later explaining it. Imagine getting to thousands of feet in the air, still being able to see land quite clearly out the window, then everything going quiet and the plane starts dropping like a stone along with the G forces involved. One of the most frightening moments of my life, but I was greatful to be alive, and I didn't go to social media to pointlessly moan. Be greatful you are alive and you actually got to your destination.
Whining about staying in an airport? You could have been scattered all over the desert in little pieces if the captain had not decided to land as a caution.
Passenger Terri Mann, said that she had to sleep on a "cold steel bench" with her 17-month old child, and that there were no "food places" at the airport. ............................ Another passenger Mark Franklin wrote that the handling of the incident was "terrible". "It's not acceptable to not have even very basic refreshment or information for almost 500 people," he added.
Singapore Airlines must immediately amend the Emergency Descent checklist - the first item being ....." Does the selected emergency landing airport have facilities to cope with the,different, personal requirements of 500 passengers ? If not do nothing and let fate take its course."
I wonder how many soft, warm benches did Terri Mann expect in Heaven - or the alternative - had they not safely landed at Baku ?
Does she and the quoted Mark Franklin expect every airline that they fly with, to have beds and meals for 500 pax.at every airport in World that they might pass en route, just in case they have to land there in an emergency ?
'bout time the Darwin Awards became more effective.
Instead of Security Checks, airports should present passengers with an affidavit to sign i.e. "In the event of an inflight emergency beyond our control, do you agree to a bit of discomfort whilst the problem is sorted out, or would you rather die ?"
One would weep, but it won't make any difference.
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Dead monkeys
Monkeys and dogs don't have too much brain to damage, so their status isn't of much interest here.
I believe there are two key steps in altitude - one at about 25,000 feet above which oxygen saturation cannot be maintained high enough to ensure long-term survival - the mountaineer's death zone - and about 60,000 feet, when the ambient pressure reduces beneath the vapor pressure of water in the lungs, "ebullition" as the macabre link suggests.
Above 50,000 feet, a pressure suit is required. Below that, oxygen allows hours of survival… but what about the sickest oldest passengers out of the 500? What about the few percent of passengers who can't work their masks, due either to a lack of natural talent, or to low-oxygen-induced senselessness?
I believe there are two key steps in altitude - one at about 25,000 feet above which oxygen saturation cannot be maintained high enough to ensure long-term survival - the mountaineer's death zone - and about 60,000 feet, when the ambient pressure reduces beneath the vapor pressure of water in the lungs, "ebullition" as the macabre link suggests.
Above 50,000 feet, a pressure suit is required. Below that, oxygen allows hours of survival… but what about the sickest oldest passengers out of the 500? What about the few percent of passengers who can't work their masks, due either to a lack of natural talent, or to low-oxygen-induced senselessness?
On the ATP when the crew said there was whistling from rear door we packed it with towels and told them to worry when the whistling stopped.
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Ice Anyone
Reminds me of two things. Traveling on G-OOOX with a leaking port side rear door, with a good covering of ice.
My science teacher, who was a Wing Co. in WWII. He would have probably said "Use the girls tights to fill the hole and cover with duck tape".
He crashed in the desert during WWII and told us how to survive with what is around you. Such were the delights of education in the UK, in the 50's and 60's.
Off topic I know, but was flying better when aircraft were more simple.
Full marks to the people up front.
My science teacher, who was a Wing Co. in WWII. He would have probably said "Use the girls tights to fill the hole and cover with duck tape".
He crashed in the desert during WWII and told us how to survive with what is around you. Such were the delights of education in the UK, in the 50's and 60's.
Off topic I know, but was flying better when aircraft were more simple.
Full marks to the people up front.
IIRC, the oxy generators are only good for 15 mins, right? So hanging about at high alt aint an option if you want the pax to survive.
A private jet Captain visited us recently and told us if his jet (think it was a G5) detects loss of pressure above FL400, the autopilot will deviate and descend after a few seconds, assuming the crew are unconscious (think he said to FL120), and bang out an ACARS/CPDLC message to ATC (if equipped). Not sure how that integrates with TCAS/GPWS etc....
A private jet Captain visited us recently and told us if his jet (think it was a G5) detects loss of pressure above FL400, the autopilot will deviate and descend after a few seconds, assuming the crew are unconscious (think he said to FL120), and bang out an ACARS/CPDLC message to ATC (if equipped). Not sure how that integrates with TCAS/GPWS etc....
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He would have probably said "Use the girls tights to fill the hole and cover with duck tape".... Off topic I know, but was flying better when aircraft were more simple.
Time to start looking for a nice farm.
SQ A380 emergency landing in Baku due to low cabin pressure
I am still not fully convinced about the difficulty posed by performing an automation assisted emergency descent with an A380. I certainly concur that the "aviate" part should most definitely come first but, at least in this case with no structural damage nor control issues (reported at least) would it be so busy upfront to exclude taking a few seconds for a PA announcement ?
On a similar train of thought what would be the technical / practical difficulty to link the o2 masks deployment with some on screen pre-recorded animation explaining what's going on ?
Last but not least in this case are we to understand that this was not a case of explosive decompression but "just" a door seal failing - in other words not a sudden event but probably a progressive loss of cabin pressure ?!
On a similar train of thought what would be the technical / practical difficulty to link the o2 masks deployment with some on screen pre-recorded animation explaining what's going on ?
Last but not least in this case are we to understand that this was not a case of explosive decompression but "just" a door seal failing - in other words not a sudden event but probably a progressive loss of cabin pressure ?!
Yes because a muffled PA announcement by a pilot wearing an oxygen mask would comfort the paranoid nervous nellies in the back. When the sheeple gets going, no announcement will appease them.
I had an emergency descent many years ago on a Canadian Airlines 737 YUL-MCO. No announcement, plastic jungle deployed, steep dive. Everyone panicking, "I see smoke", "There is a hole in the back", etc ad nauseum. I figured if you are going down in a controlled manner, things are looking up! Some woman behind me yelling "I CANT BREATHE WITH THIS THING ON" as we were flying level at a lower altitude. I told her to take her mask off, that should fix it.
Found out the windshield cracked upon landing in Charlottesville. Dry county. I was not aware such thinks existed as I wanted to buy the Captain a drink for his good flying.
Seems like the crew handled this well. Lets wait to see the cause.
I had an emergency descent many years ago on a Canadian Airlines 737 YUL-MCO. No announcement, plastic jungle deployed, steep dive. Everyone panicking, "I see smoke", "There is a hole in the back", etc ad nauseum. I figured if you are going down in a controlled manner, things are looking up! Some woman behind me yelling "I CANT BREATHE WITH THIS THING ON" as we were flying level at a lower altitude. I told her to take her mask off, that should fix it.
Found out the windshield cracked upon landing in Charlottesville. Dry county. I was not aware such thinks existed as I wanted to buy the Captain a drink for his good flying.
Seems like the crew handled this well. Lets wait to see the cause.
I believe PreRecorded Announcement on mask deployment is customer option. On many carriers it'd probably be better NOT to have one as the pax would probably freak out even more...
A380 oxy is not chemically provided, it's a gaseous tank system a la 747 (at least on the largest 380 operator it is) Time available varies with several factors but it's enough to get the job done if you're over the Himalayas...
A380 oxy is not chemically provided, it's a gaseous tank system a la 747 (at least on the largest 380 operator it is) Time available varies with several factors but it's enough to get the job done if you're over the Himalayas...