Russian B737 Crash at Kazan.
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Комиссия отмечает, что при вскрытии контейнера самописца речевой информации защищенный контейнер с лентопротяжным механизмом отсутствовал.
DOVE
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UWKD 171600Z 24008G12MPS 5000 -RASN OVC008 03/03 Q0993 R29/2/0055 NOSIG RMK QFE734/0978
UWKD 171530Z 23008G11MPS 5000 -RASN OVC007 03/03 Q0993 R29/2/0055 NOSIG RMK QFE734/0979
Which on Rwy 29, means a Xw comp.= c.ca 8G12 Kts. Not a big deal.
From 700 m (2200 ft) to zero in 20 secs, means 6600 ft/min???
Given that the stabilizer was almost for sure, as usual in that phase of flight, toward the final end of ANU, as soon as the plane had regained a bit of speed would also have had a strong pitch up moment.
The only maneuvers I can imagine for a plane to assume such an attitude are:
- A spin (to which would favor the low speed and the high rate of descent)
- An Hammerhead
- A loop
And since the last two above mentioned manoeuvre have to be excluded, only one possibility remains:
The loss of the elevator or the whole tail separation.
My two cents
UWKD 171530Z 23008G11MPS 5000 -RASN OVC007 03/03 Q0993 R29/2/0055 NOSIG RMK QFE734/0979
Which on Rwy 29, means a Xw comp.= c.ca 8G12 Kts. Not a big deal.
AC, after reaching alt of 700m, started to descend with negative pitch angle, that reached -75 degrees at the end of the recording. AC came into contact with the ground at high speed (more than 450 kmh ) and with large negative pitch angle.
From the moment of GA to the end of recording 45 sec had passed and the descend took 20 secs From the moment of GA to the end of recording 45 sec had passed and the descend took 20 secs.
From the moment of GA to the end of recording 45 sec had passed and the descend took 20 secs From the moment of GA to the end of recording 45 sec had passed and the descend took 20 secs.
Given that the stabilizer was almost for sure, as usual in that phase of flight, toward the final end of ANU, as soon as the plane had regained a bit of speed would also have had a strong pitch up moment.
The only maneuvers I can imagine for a plane to assume such an attitude are:
- A spin (to which would favor the low speed and the high rate of descent)
- An Hammerhead
- A loop
And since the last two above mentioned manoeuvre have to be excluded, only one possibility remains:
The loss of the elevator or the whole tail separation.
My two cents
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Upon opening the CVR container they did not find the crash container w tape module inside
"When CVR was found the protected container with tape transport mechanism was absent."
It could be detached by impact so MAK search for it at crash site.
CPT - 2.500hr on type, 3 years ago retrainig from navigator
FE - 1.900hr, 2 years ago retrainig from FE
Their first GA in real conditions
Last edited by Karel_x; 19th Nov 2013 at 18:03.
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seems to me that the pilots didn't properly control the plane either in the approach or the go around.
and folks, if you go to max thrust on a go around and the nose comes up and the yoke doesn't make it go down
try reducing thrust.
but, the 737 has done thousands of go arounds and a normally competent crew can handle it.
as to illusions...use instruments.
and folks, if you go to max thrust on a go around and the nose comes up and the yoke doesn't make it go down
try reducing thrust.
but, the 737 has done thousands of go arounds and a normally competent crew can handle it.
as to illusions...use instruments.
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I suppose they do - it's a pretty big debris field to comb through. The outer container which was shown is a flimsy looking orange box which they pried open with the help of some cutters and a hammer. The inner container is a much more serious looking smaller box and this is what they need to find.
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Not quite. Upon opening the CVR container they did not find the crash container w tape module inside. Still looking.
Pilot: Cuss word.
PNF: What are you doing?
PF: Cuss word. Here, you take it!
PNF: I don't want it! I have no idea what to do.
PF: Cuss word.
PNF: (operates some random object that has nothing to do with anything)
PF: Cuss word.
PNF: Cuss word.
PF: Cuss word.
tape ends
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maybe boeing should now consider an automatic go around with one AP engaged rather than full AP disconnect.
we have had a lot of guys come off the 756 with that automation onto the 738 and a lot of training focus on manual G/As.
we have had a lot of guys come off the 756 with that automation onto the 738 and a lot of training focus on manual G/As.
DOVE
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Oh! I forgot the gem:
What about MANUAL REVERSION?
Yes I know the Landing gear was ordered to be retracted, but...was it?
I left the B73 more than 6 years ago and was sim checked on such an Emergency Proc only once.
I remember that it was very difficult to obtain a minimal excursion of Flt Controls (elev, aileron & rudder) although both of us made a considerable effort.
What about MANUAL REVERSION?
Yes I know the Landing gear was ordered to be retracted, but...was it?
I left the B73 more than 6 years ago and was sim checked on such an Emergency Proc only once.
I remember that it was very difficult to obtain a minimal excursion of Flt Controls (elev, aileron & rudder) although both of us made a considerable effort.
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we have had a lot of guys come off the 756
In all Boeings go-arounds are initiated manually though you can engage A/P soon after. The go-around is such a basic air manoeuvre that if you can't do manually you have no business getting even close to a cockpit.
Which converts to 243 knots.
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Possible uncommanded rudder deployment
The video footage shows vertical high speed dive into solid terra firma. So reminiscent of the 1991 UA 585 at Colarado Springs. Could this be another PCU failure.
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Dove: the position of the trim could be much dependent upon whether they were using a dual auto-pilot (coupled) approach and were also below 400ft Rad Alt (or not) when they pressed the TOGA button (which is assuming they did indeed press the TOGA button), as that 'auto land' scenario can dramatically effect the position of the stabiliser trim, depending upon ones height above the ground.
And / or in the event of a go-around, what of Power / Attitude / Trim, along with appropriate & timely selection of flap & landing gear? And was the Auto-Throttle selected 'Off' or was it in the (non-approved, by Boeing) 'Speed-Off' mode? And what of FMA mode awareness? And following (or not) of ones Flight Director (all aside from potential somatogravic illusions,... err, what about follow your instruments, etc)?
All of these can play their part in setting an aircraft up for an 'unusual attitude' event.
And let me be so bold as to provide just ONE scenario of a poorly flown go-around in a B737....
With dual autopilots engaged in ILS Approach Mode, and captured to the ILS. A go-around is actioned when below 400ft Rad Alt. The autopilot(s) have at that point wound in nose-up stabiliser (i.e. ready for the autopilot to either flare the aircraft as part of the landing, or else primed for a go-around), and the Flight Directors are still switched on. Then, instead of pressing the TOGA button (and therein letting the 'automatics' fly the go-around), the Pilot Flying disconnects both the Autopilot & Auto-Throttle, and shoves the thrust levers fully to the firewall, i.e. electing to fly the go-around fully manually.
A likely outcome is those actions - at that point in time - would be that the aircraft would pitch dramatically nose-up... that said, if the TOGA button is not pressed then the Flight Director guidance is still to follow the ILS (and indeed the aircraft is not 'aware' that TOGA mode and all associated acceleration & combined flap retraction modes are to be utilised)... and, assuming that they are following a split-axis (cross hairs) based Flight Director, then the pitch bar of the FD will be fully 'fly down' (the queue to the active mode is being given by the FMA). Now go figure what happens next?!
And that just one example of a f-up to be had in a 737 during a go-around that I can think of... and there are lots more !
olasek: wrt
.... yes, that's ostensibly true, but what happens next very much depends upon the point in space when the TOGA button was pressed (and which assumes that the TOGA was indeed pressed... see explanation above), and / or was one utilising either a single or dual auto-pilot approach prior to initiating the go-around (either manually and / or via TOGA)?!
Also, if one initiates a go-around (via a press of the TOGA button) when utilising a single autopilot based ILS approach, the first thing that happens is that the autopilot disconnects, if one then (re-)engages an autopilot (i.e. when now in TOGA mode) it then cancels the TOGA mode, and does a number of other things too, which I'll trust you are aware of ?!
And / or in the event of a go-around, what of Power / Attitude / Trim, along with appropriate & timely selection of flap & landing gear? And was the Auto-Throttle selected 'Off' or was it in the (non-approved, by Boeing) 'Speed-Off' mode? And what of FMA mode awareness? And following (or not) of ones Flight Director (all aside from potential somatogravic illusions,... err, what about follow your instruments, etc)?
All of these can play their part in setting an aircraft up for an 'unusual attitude' event.
And let me be so bold as to provide just ONE scenario of a poorly flown go-around in a B737....
With dual autopilots engaged in ILS Approach Mode, and captured to the ILS. A go-around is actioned when below 400ft Rad Alt. The autopilot(s) have at that point wound in nose-up stabiliser (i.e. ready for the autopilot to either flare the aircraft as part of the landing, or else primed for a go-around), and the Flight Directors are still switched on. Then, instead of pressing the TOGA button (and therein letting the 'automatics' fly the go-around), the Pilot Flying disconnects both the Autopilot & Auto-Throttle, and shoves the thrust levers fully to the firewall, i.e. electing to fly the go-around fully manually.
A likely outcome is those actions - at that point in time - would be that the aircraft would pitch dramatically nose-up... that said, if the TOGA button is not pressed then the Flight Director guidance is still to follow the ILS (and indeed the aircraft is not 'aware' that TOGA mode and all associated acceleration & combined flap retraction modes are to be utilised)... and, assuming that they are following a split-axis (cross hairs) based Flight Director, then the pitch bar of the FD will be fully 'fly down' (the queue to the active mode is being given by the FMA). Now go figure what happens next?!
And that just one example of a f-up to be had in a 737 during a go-around that I can think of... and there are lots more !
olasek: wrt
"In Boeings all go-arounds are initiated manually though you can engage A/P soon after."
Also, if one initiates a go-around (via a press of the TOGA button) when utilising a single autopilot based ILS approach, the first thing that happens is that the autopilot disconnects, if one then (re-)engages an autopilot (i.e. when now in TOGA mode) it then cancels the TOGA mode, and does a number of other things too, which I'll trust you are aware of ?!
Does it matter? If the casual observer is to believe the videos on Youtube we already know what it says
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In all Boeings go-arounds are initiated manually though you can engage A/P soon after.
However, if already in manual flight that is of course a moot point, still not a difficult procedure if the training department does now how to do its job.
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Trim
I'd suspect an out of trim condition during G/A. G/A-Thrust might lead to STAB-Trim ending up full-nose-down (esp since flaps extended, trim moves quickly), which may lead to this type of "descend" when Thrust is reduced during "level-off" after the G/A due to the resulting nose-down moment. Difficult to solve without applying thrust.... Happend before.