Some good news/bad news from the EU! EASA FTL rejected
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"Fatigued, you mean tired perhaps or suffer some sleepyness"
So Mr Bangly me Surely, in your opinion if is just sleepIness than it is acceptable to operate an aircraft?
Oxford dictionary definition " extreme tiredness resulting from mental or physical exertion or illness"
So according to the definition fatigue is caused by someone being tired. Do 6 mornings in a row, starting 4 in the morning, and you see gradually as the days go by, that you just get more and more tired, example the week before it's a mix of early and late flights, do you believe our body magically can switch a button getting used to these different times?
It is a part of the job, but it also shows stupidity beyond what is normal, these guys / girls who do the planning should try it for a month themselves, and than see what they they think of it.
So Mr Bangly me Surely, in your opinion if is just sleepIness than it is acceptable to operate an aircraft?
Oxford dictionary definition " extreme tiredness resulting from mental or physical exertion or illness"
So according to the definition fatigue is caused by someone being tired. Do 6 mornings in a row, starting 4 in the morning, and you see gradually as the days go by, that you just get more and more tired, example the week before it's a mix of early and late flights, do you believe our body magically can switch a button getting used to these different times?
It is a part of the job, but it also shows stupidity beyond what is normal, these guys / girls who do the planning should try it for a month themselves, and than see what they they think of it.
Having a dig at the average scheduler on 16k-18k a year doesnt stack up either, they are guided by prescriptive rules. EASA FTL in the UK will be prescriptive rules morphed with FRMS so in my view (bearing in mind the title of the discussion) fatigue (sleepyness) levels will not increase. Thats my own view and a UK AOC pilots can only be perceived at this time. If we don't switch to EASA FTL I can't see another medium sized UK AOC ever again, something the bean counters (who i can assure you do care about their staff and put in more time than any pilot does) do care about.
Yeah, look, don't have a go at the planners or the rosterers - they are just doing what they are told.
It is the bosses and the system that is wrong. And these are driven by "market forces", (in other words, making as much profit as possible).
Why don't we complain about fatigue? Well we do, but the system is geared up against us. They might look into a fatigue report, but we cannot have a national or pan-European pilot's strike because the law prohibits it. So we are in a situation that we know is not right, but we cannot do much about it. The system is skewed to save money by having as few pilots and cabin crew as they can get away with. This means we are rostered up to the max and we are getting tired. As has been said, why are truck drivers mandated to stop after 4.5 hours (and have to prove it with their tachograph), and why must ATC have regular breaks? because everyone knows that the human brain cannot concentrate reliably for more than a few hours without having regular breaks.
But it's not necessarily fatigue. How on earth did a BA jet get airborne with both its engine cowls undone? About five different people (including the pilots) missed the fact they were unlatched. That was probably not fatigue as such, but sheer pressure of work.
In addition to this, flight crews spend a lot of their time in a dry atmosphere at 8,000' altitude. Any program one sees of mountain climbers can appreciate how much strain that puts on the human body. 1 hour at 8,000' is probably equivalent to 2 or more hours at ground level.
Pilots and cabin crew have slipped through the net. But in the old days, a crew might fly LGW to PMI then get off and night stop ! Now somehow, that has become LGW-PMI-LGW and do it all again for the next 5 days, starting at Oh dark o'clock, thank you very much.
The CAA seems to have completely missed the change in our situation. They come and sit on our jump seat for one afternoon on two short sectors and have a nice day, soaking up some of the "glamour", and drinking coffee. What we really need to happen is for the CAA to spend a couple of weeks sitting on the jump seat doing low cost short haul rosters - getting up at 0330 every day for 6 days doing four sector days, and another couple of weeks doing long haul bullets. Then let them say to us what they think of the hours we work and the lack of breaks we have.
The CAA in Gatwick work office hours in lovely offices. They get up at sensible times and go home at sensible times. They have regular rosters - they have weekends off. They have a lovely (subsidised) canteen with wholesome food, and lovely quiet surroundings. I do not begrudge them any of this, but I wish they would realise that our jobs are not like they used to be, and that in todays low cost environment; flight crews now need more protection, not less.
It is the bosses and the system that is wrong. And these are driven by "market forces", (in other words, making as much profit as possible).
Why don't we complain about fatigue? Well we do, but the system is geared up against us. They might look into a fatigue report, but we cannot have a national or pan-European pilot's strike because the law prohibits it. So we are in a situation that we know is not right, but we cannot do much about it. The system is skewed to save money by having as few pilots and cabin crew as they can get away with. This means we are rostered up to the max and we are getting tired. As has been said, why are truck drivers mandated to stop after 4.5 hours (and have to prove it with their tachograph), and why must ATC have regular breaks? because everyone knows that the human brain cannot concentrate reliably for more than a few hours without having regular breaks.
But it's not necessarily fatigue. How on earth did a BA jet get airborne with both its engine cowls undone? About five different people (including the pilots) missed the fact they were unlatched. That was probably not fatigue as such, but sheer pressure of work.
In addition to this, flight crews spend a lot of their time in a dry atmosphere at 8,000' altitude. Any program one sees of mountain climbers can appreciate how much strain that puts on the human body. 1 hour at 8,000' is probably equivalent to 2 or more hours at ground level.
Pilots and cabin crew have slipped through the net. But in the old days, a crew might fly LGW to PMI then get off and night stop ! Now somehow, that has become LGW-PMI-LGW and do it all again for the next 5 days, starting at Oh dark o'clock, thank you very much.
The CAA seems to have completely missed the change in our situation. They come and sit on our jump seat for one afternoon on two short sectors and have a nice day, soaking up some of the "glamour", and drinking coffee. What we really need to happen is for the CAA to spend a couple of weeks sitting on the jump seat doing low cost short haul rosters - getting up at 0330 every day for 6 days doing four sector days, and another couple of weeks doing long haul bullets. Then let them say to us what they think of the hours we work and the lack of breaks we have.
The CAA in Gatwick work office hours in lovely offices. They get up at sensible times and go home at sensible times. They have regular rosters - they have weekends off. They have a lovely (subsidised) canteen with wholesome food, and lovely quiet surroundings. I do not begrudge them any of this, but I wish they would realise that our jobs are not like they used to be, and that in todays low cost environment; flight crews now need more protection, not less.
Last edited by Uplinker; 11th Nov 2013 at 13:24.
I have heard of people doing Cologne to Palma and back three times in a day in previous times! That people night stopped due to curfews etc. is correct. But it is also true that it sometimes involved sitting for a few hours on the plane! Avoiding this kind of thing is exactly why sensible FTLs are needed.
That things were not always rosy in the past does not however excuse the farce that occurred in Brussels with the recent vote. I was also surprised to learn that the regulations do not come into force for a couple of years.
That things were not always rosy in the past does not however excuse the farce that occurred in Brussels with the recent vote. I was also surprised to learn that the regulations do not come into force for a couple of years.
FTL
CAP371: limits are not the asymptotes that the regulator assumes them to be... They naturally become targets. As the cost-benefit of pushing your luck is a system that has catastrophic but infrequent/exceptional events, then the fact that the companies, CAA's, passengers and crew "get away" with risky processes is a reinforcement of the assumption that all is well. Coupled with inherently dysfunctional reporting systems, that is endemic at all levels of society, (messengers are a, er, um, "target" audience.... ) in all countries... The people who can end up bleeding from the immediate consequences continue to be the bastions of operational safety, with minimal support.
How many companies give operational risk management, CRM, HF training to the CEO, managers, rostering staff etc? When did any of the EASA/EC senior management undertake same? Invariably, the bleeding edge manager, the pilot, is left to make the decision that the wheels have come off the wagon, with the mute, but imposing and menacing presence of the corporation, and with the indifference of the regulator. Passengers vote with their wallets, as do share holders, and the immediate, non lethal outcomes that "normally" occur are resented, yet, the pilot will be held solely accountable post disaster as not having the fortitude to prevail, and for being fallible. After all, the PIC is "in command".
FTL is an issue, but it is only one of the symptoms of a seriously flawed system. Keeping on topic, fatigue results in damage and losses, on a relatively routine basis. Back when I cared about such things, I recall 2 events of severe structural damage done in flight that were, factually, directly attributable to the crews fatigue, and additional high headcount fatalities where fatigue should have been held as the primary contributory factor, not further down the lists. In these cases, the forces of darkness failed to accept moral responsibility, or modify their practices to reduce their exposure to operational risk.
The industry relies on the boy scout mentality of the flight crew, with the added incentive of punitive sanctions applied outside of the stated policies, (in contravention of the policies and in breach of the obligations of post holders duty of care). Nothing wrong with being boy (girl) scouts, but if you take a stand, be prepared for the outrageous fortune that may result, recall that "Unity" may sound like a group ideal of cohesiveness, but also means "One".
Having been threatened personally by an AOC postholder for a company that has a global public reputation for doing better, "if you put in [a] safety report, "we" will get you...", I am under no illusions as to the nature of our industry. Truckflyer's post on the state of the union I am sadly in concurrence
It was written rather optimistically
"Though the vicious can sometimes pour affliction upon the good, their power is transient and their punishment certain; and that innocence, though oppressed by injustice, shall, supported by patience, finally triumph over misfortune!" Ann Radcliffe
Which is a good bed time tale, great fodder for subjugation, unsubstantiated by recorded history.... A salve to fears and a carrot to righteous behavior, it is, however, wrong. Even Burke was overly optimistic and simplistic, with "for evil to triumph... ", as "The end excuses any evil" Sophocles said, and, Steinem contends, "Evil is obvious only in retrospect."
Each one of us that assume the mantle of professionalism in this industry are individually and collectively, held responsible for a safety outcome that is compromised by the regulator and the operator to a significant extent. How we manage that may end up defining us. At the end of the day, you all get to look in the mirror and can see whether the decisions that are made are those that you are either proud of, or not. I can personally say that standing up for your beliefs will always come at a cost, but it is far less than being a statistic, or losing your self respect.
One prime minister of a land down-under once described pilots as "bus drivers", and he was wrong; bus drivers have more public interest in their welfare and that of the general travelling public than pilots have.
"Integrity without knowledge is weak and useless, and knowledge without integrity is dangerous and dreadful". Samuel Johnson
How many companies give operational risk management, CRM, HF training to the CEO, managers, rostering staff etc? When did any of the EASA/EC senior management undertake same? Invariably, the bleeding edge manager, the pilot, is left to make the decision that the wheels have come off the wagon, with the mute, but imposing and menacing presence of the corporation, and with the indifference of the regulator. Passengers vote with their wallets, as do share holders, and the immediate, non lethal outcomes that "normally" occur are resented, yet, the pilot will be held solely accountable post disaster as not having the fortitude to prevail, and for being fallible. After all, the PIC is "in command".
FTL is an issue, but it is only one of the symptoms of a seriously flawed system. Keeping on topic, fatigue results in damage and losses, on a relatively routine basis. Back when I cared about such things, I recall 2 events of severe structural damage done in flight that were, factually, directly attributable to the crews fatigue, and additional high headcount fatalities where fatigue should have been held as the primary contributory factor, not further down the lists. In these cases, the forces of darkness failed to accept moral responsibility, or modify their practices to reduce their exposure to operational risk.
The industry relies on the boy scout mentality of the flight crew, with the added incentive of punitive sanctions applied outside of the stated policies, (in contravention of the policies and in breach of the obligations of post holders duty of care). Nothing wrong with being boy (girl) scouts, but if you take a stand, be prepared for the outrageous fortune that may result, recall that "Unity" may sound like a group ideal of cohesiveness, but also means "One".
Having been threatened personally by an AOC postholder for a company that has a global public reputation for doing better, "if you put in [a] safety report, "we" will get you...", I am under no illusions as to the nature of our industry. Truckflyer's post on the state of the union I am sadly in concurrence
It was written rather optimistically
"Though the vicious can sometimes pour affliction upon the good, their power is transient and their punishment certain; and that innocence, though oppressed by injustice, shall, supported by patience, finally triumph over misfortune!" Ann Radcliffe
Which is a good bed time tale, great fodder for subjugation, unsubstantiated by recorded history.... A salve to fears and a carrot to righteous behavior, it is, however, wrong. Even Burke was overly optimistic and simplistic, with "for evil to triumph... ", as "The end excuses any evil" Sophocles said, and, Steinem contends, "Evil is obvious only in retrospect."
Each one of us that assume the mantle of professionalism in this industry are individually and collectively, held responsible for a safety outcome that is compromised by the regulator and the operator to a significant extent. How we manage that may end up defining us. At the end of the day, you all get to look in the mirror and can see whether the decisions that are made are those that you are either proud of, or not. I can personally say that standing up for your beliefs will always come at a cost, but it is far less than being a statistic, or losing your self respect.
One prime minister of a land down-under once described pilots as "bus drivers", and he was wrong; bus drivers have more public interest in their welfare and that of the general travelling public than pilots have.
"Integrity without knowledge is weak and useless, and knowledge without integrity is dangerous and dreadful". Samuel Johnson
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UpL
As has been said before ATC and truck driver are one man band. If you need a break ask your colleague to look after shop for you, isn't that called CRM?
Um - not sure too many charter airlines do 4 sector days, so which airline is left that does mixed short haul and long haul......
As i've said before hadn't EU FTL come in I would hav bet there would be no other medium sized AOC in the UK. You also fail to highlight that for example under EASA FTL the FDP for example in the afternoon is less. You also fail to mention that most medium / large sized UK AOC have Union agreements and are heavily investing in FRMS.
Yes, it is all hard work these days, if you dont like it go work for the CAA as an IOA
As has been said before ATC and truck driver are one man band. If you need a break ask your colleague to look after shop for you, isn't that called CRM?
getting up at 0330 every day for 6 days doing four sector days, and another couple of weeks doing long haul bullets
As i've said before hadn't EU FTL come in I would hav bet there would be no other medium sized AOC in the UK. You also fail to highlight that for example under EASA FTL the FDP for example in the afternoon is less. You also fail to mention that most medium / large sized UK AOC have Union agreements and are heavily investing in FRMS.
Yes, it is all hard work these days, if you dont like it go work for the CAA as an IOA
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Um - not sure too many charter airlines do 4 sector days, so which airline is left that does mixed short haul and long haul......
RYR are now going to operate Canaries to Sweden. That is going to be >6.00 each way. The next day you could do the more normal multi-short sector day. !2 hours in an aluminium tube with no exercise, not even standing up, except for 5 minutes on the turn-round, seems like arduous long-haul to me. Proper single sector long-haul a/c have a cockpit big enough to stand up and stretch in. IMHO using short haul a/c for long-haul trips is not the most healthy of daily occupations. Been there, done that, in both types of a/c and so have much personal knowledge; before the usual slagging off along the lines of if you don't like then quit. I didn't & I have.
RYR are now going to operate Canaries to Sweden. That is going to be >6.00 each way. The next day you could do the more normal multi-short sector day. !2 hours in an aluminium tube with no exercise, not even standing up, except for 5 minutes on the turn-round, seems like arduous long-haul to me. Proper single sector long-haul a/c have a cockpit big enough to stand up and stretch in. IMHO using short haul a/c for long-haul trips is not the most healthy of daily occupations. Been there, done that, in both types of a/c and so have much personal knowledge; before the usual slagging off along the lines of if you don't like then quit. I didn't & I have.
My last couple of days consisted of 23 hours duty, nearly 15 hours block, eight sectors. A six hour single canaries leg sounds pretty good as the rules current or future would not allow a return. (Two five hours sectors are of course another matter particularly when scheduled through the night as they frequently are.)
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Nothing stops you from standing up, getting out of your seat and walk around the cabin every hour or so. I would even call this practice a necessity for your own, and thus your crew' and passenger's health and wellbeing.
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Six hour sectors are possible actually. 45 Minutes report time, 12 hours flight, 30 minutes turn around. Works like a charm in the RYR world. However it is only possible twice within seven days.
But there are still those airlines out there that fly a mix of long and shorthaul, air berlin for example does it on the MFF fleet (A330/A320).
But there are still those airlines out there that fly a mix of long and shorthaul, air berlin for example does it on the MFF fleet (A330/A320).
Thanks for the correction Denti, I think they actually manage 25 minute turnarounds by the way! I personally would still prefer six or seven days of that and the rest of the month free. But I guess the grass is always greener.
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lederhosen & denti, you are both correct it seems on turnaround times.
RYR seems to adopt turnaround time in excess of 25 minutes where required, even up to 45 minutes in IBZ in summer on some flights.
look at their schedule in Canaries and compare arrival from and departure to any of their bases, e.g. flights flown by crew from that base, and you will see a mix of 25/30/35...
RYR seems to adopt turnaround time in excess of 25 minutes where required, even up to 45 minutes in IBZ in summer on some flights.
look at their schedule in Canaries and compare arrival from and departure to any of their bases, e.g. flights flown by crew from that base, and you will see a mix of 25/30/35...
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Nothing stops you from standing up, getting out of your seat and walk around the cabin every hour or so. I would even call this practice a necessity for your own, and thus your crew' and passenger's health and wellbeing.
Since locked cockpit doors all the airlines I've flown for this is an absolute No NO. So forget about crew's well-being. No sure how the pilot strolling around then cabin helps with pax well-being. The captain strolling around the cabin on long-haul flights and shaking hands with all and sundry has been a thing of the past for many years in the EU world and USA I suspect.
Amazingly, speaking to mates in various airlines, a B737 crew can do Canaries - Scandinavia up and back with only 2 pilots locked in their box for >6.00hrs before a very short leg stretch and then a repeat performance. Same is true for flights from N.Europe to Egypt or Gambia. Meanwhile a long-haul carrier from the national carriers, with an a/c designed for the job and thus large cockpit, does a 12.00hr single sector with 3 pilots and bunks, even down to S.Africa with no time change. Go figure.
Since locked cockpit doors all the airlines I've flown for this is an absolute No NO. So forget about crew's well-being. No sure how the pilot strolling around then cabin helps with pax well-being. The captain strolling around the cabin on long-haul flights and shaking hands with all and sundry has been a thing of the past for many years in the EU world and USA I suspect.
Amazingly, speaking to mates in various airlines, a B737 crew can do Canaries - Scandinavia up and back with only 2 pilots locked in their box for >6.00hrs before a very short leg stretch and then a repeat performance. Same is true for flights from N.Europe to Egypt or Gambia. Meanwhile a long-haul carrier from the national carriers, with an a/c designed for the job and thus large cockpit, does a 12.00hr single sector with 3 pilots and bunks, even down to S.Africa with no time change. Go figure.
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A very good post by fdr at 308, I think. There is a complacency in the media and public that aviation is regulated to the highest standards and is safe, and so swallow the bait when any CEO trots out the line that the company operates to the legal criteria. I too have faced the wrath of a Chief Pilot when I was grounded by a doctor for chronic fatigue and refused to let crewing sign me of as sick instead of fatigued. The industry will punish those who do the right thing in this instance, and the authorities are wilfully turning a blind eye.
The authorities don't seem interested that limits are now targets, and that there are many ingenious re(mis)-interpretations or subtle floutings of regulations. Look at the disinterested replies in Chirp to see the casual disregard for safety by the authorities... No wonder fatigue events are rarely reported, with disdain form the authorities and punishment from management, why would anyone put their neck on the block with no chance of positive change and every chance of retribution?
The FTL schemes also seem to have been written with long haul in mind and provide little protection for multi-sector days, especially in airlines who give little ground support to their crews at ill-equipped minor airports.
The authorities don't seem interested that limits are now targets, and that there are many ingenious re(mis)-interpretations or subtle floutings of regulations. Look at the disinterested replies in Chirp to see the casual disregard for safety by the authorities... No wonder fatigue events are rarely reported, with disdain form the authorities and punishment from management, why would anyone put their neck on the block with no chance of positive change and every chance of retribution?
The FTL schemes also seem to have been written with long haul in mind and provide little protection for multi-sector days, especially in airlines who give little ground support to their crews at ill-equipped minor airports.
Hi Mr Angry;
I wasn't talking about just a single airline. As far as I know, Flybe and easyJet do 4 sector days, and Virgin and BA do long haul bullets, don't they?
What I meant was to put observers on each of those flight decks for a couple of weeks following a crew's roster, not just a single afternoon 'jolly'.
This way might convey the cumulative fatigue/tiredness that we experience?
I wasn't talking about just a single airline. As far as I know, Flybe and easyJet do 4 sector days, and Virgin and BA do long haul bullets, don't they?
What I meant was to put observers on each of those flight decks for a couple of weeks following a crew's roster, not just a single afternoon 'jolly'.
This way might convey the cumulative fatigue/tiredness that we experience?
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Rat5,
Why then am I doing this every flight?
It is not a NO NO at all! How do you use the lavatories?! Do you claim you never go and have a chat with the CC in the forward or rear galley?!
You should mate!
Why then am I doing this every flight?
It is not a NO NO at all! How do you use the lavatories?! Do you claim you never go and have a chat with the CC in the forward or rear galley?!
You should mate!
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C'acas. It is not a NO NO at all! How do you use the lavatories?! Do you claim you never go and have a chat with the CC in the forward or rear galley?!
You should mate!
Because in the airlines I've flown for since 9/11 it is an absolute NO NO in the company orders. There were special security procedures in place for pee-time. Even if there was a pax disturbance in the cabin the pilots were forbidden to leave the cockpit. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with said orders, only that they were in force. Your company has different philosophies. However, I thought this NO NO order was EU wide. Perhaps you are somewhere else.
You should mate!
Because in the airlines I've flown for since 9/11 it is an absolute NO NO in the company orders. There were special security procedures in place for pee-time. Even if there was a pax disturbance in the cabin the pilots were forbidden to leave the cockpit. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with said orders, only that they were in force. Your company has different philosophies. However, I thought this NO NO order was EU wide. Perhaps you are somewhere else.