Thai A330 accident at BKK
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Think we are that close to removing the first Pee from PPRUNE,..it's back to flight school for us all,Until we understand the difference between "push" and "ease"...of course!
Which ever method I use, the result is fairly consistent..
Which ever method I use, the result is fairly consistent..
Ooooh this is fun but slipping off thread to the point where the Mods are closing in ! BSD, c'mon, banging out in a hissy fit ! Stay with it. Good to see Nitty not taking it as well as he dishes it out. Bloggsy always good for a laff but, I offer this : Trident was best landed by PUSHING forward just before touch. You had to do this within 2.6 inches of mainwheel touch & if you consider the geometry, you will see that the action would lift the mainwheels.(if you still had some airspeed) BUT, one had to be very brave to try it. B72 was similar. Airbus is a different (awful) beast & the yoke merely signals the FCC's that position the flight controls. You DO flare, a bit , but once mainwheels are stuck on you DO P U S H and it is called DEROTATION and it IS referred to in the FCOMs. I always just did what my teachers told me to do but I often wondered, alone at night in my hotel room, what would happen if you didn't de-rotate.(never wondered if I had company ) Speed decay would probaly just result in nose lowering but one might run out of runway. Now, PUSH to hard..............(de-rotating too agressively ) .......... and one could wind up slamming the nosewheel. Geees, why do Airbus put us in this hideous position at the end of the day ? Bring back the DC3. Cripes, looks like one could slam the tail if you PULLED after touch.
Ooooh this is fun but slipping off thread to the point where the Mods are closing in !
Interesting that it appears most, if not all, swept-wing rear-mounted-engined jets like to be rolled-on; the "DC 9 ski" certainly does. Main gear further back from wing than on a underslung jobbie so "easing forward" lifts them?
If that A330 was mine, the first thing I'd be saying was "who flew this before me?!".
Last edited by Capn Bloggs; 14th Sep 2013 at 23:37. Reason: Added: "rear-mounted-engined"
Back seat driver-----I did not advocated gently pushing forward "before" main gear touchdown in the flare maneuver did I?
Yes that used to be a technique used on the mighty 727.
Think and say what you like but this is the way it's generally done on the 330.
Live and learn buddy
Oh and please read my post again....
Yes that used to be a technique used on the mighty 727.
Think and say what you like but this is the way it's generally done on the 330.
Live and learn buddy
Oh and please read my post again....
Last edited by nitpicker330; 13th Sep 2013 at 13:08.
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Gentlefolk..gentlefolk(PC times).......time please!....
And the winner is...Pull, then push...or was it Push then pull!...oh well,back to the bar for some more embibement!
Ps..Gordomac...if you didn't lock the DC3 tail wheel on takeoff, it usually meant 10 points for artistic interpretation..on the landing..(stolen from Digby Sinclair's tribute to Twotter antics,Aberdeen,early 80's)
And the winner is...Pull, then push...or was it Push then pull!...oh well,back to the bar for some more embibement!
Ps..Gordomac...if you didn't lock the DC3 tail wheel on takeoff, it usually meant 10 points for artistic interpretation..on the landing..(stolen from Digby Sinclair's tribute to Twotter antics,Aberdeen,early 80's)
Last edited by Yaw String; 13th Sep 2013 at 13:56.
Do an Autoland in the 330 and watch the autopilot behaviour on touchdown.
It derotates AGGRESSIVELY.
That's what Airbus designed it to do.
The best landings I ever got on an A330 came from 'rolling on' a -300 before main wheel touchdown. Super smooth. You gotta set it up right though.
It derotates AGGRESSIVELY.
That's what Airbus designed it to do.
The best landings I ever got on an A330 came from 'rolling on' a -300 before main wheel touchdown. Super smooth. You gotta set it up right though.
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"..... Roll On"
See #106.
The theory of “roll on” for the Trident applied only to the T3. Trg school thoroughly discouraged the practice but it was widely used (except on short runways). However, I really would dispute the figure of 2.6 inches. 2.5 was the ideal and any deviation could give surprising results. T1 and T2 did not suffer from the same idiosyncrasy.
The theory of “roll on” for the Trident applied only to the T3. Trg school thoroughly discouraged the practice but it was widely used (except on short runways). However, I really would dispute the figure of 2.6 inches. 2.5 was the ideal and any deviation could give surprising results. T1 and T2 did not suffer from the same idiosyncrasy.
I really would dispute the figure of 2.6 inches. 2.5 was the ideal and any deviation could give surprising results.
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Read and Weep (with laughter......or nervousness!)
Well the English Newspapers in Bangkok, are today publishing a statement from the Managing Director of Thai Airways that should have you all feeling much safer when your wheels land on in Bangkok. It would appear that the recent incident has nothing to do with an undercarriage assembly but is all to do with spirits and condo's (yes that is correct). I hope the worlds regulatory authorities will be satisfied with this approach to aircraft incident/accident investigation. Or perhaps Thai Airways should have a full audit before being allowed back in to FAA/EASA airspace. From:
Recent Transport Disasters Blamed On Spirits : Khaosod Online
Recent Transport Disasters Blamed On Spirits : Khaosod Online
BANGKOK: -- Supernatural powers are cited as the factors behind recent high-profile accidents in Thailand, namely the botched landing of a Thai Airways plane at Bangkok′s main airport earlier this week.
14 people were injured during the evacuation from the Airbus A330-300 which skid off the runway of Suvarnabhumi Airport on 9 September.
While initial investigation pointed to a malfunctioned landing gear (the officials have not yet finished their inquiry), the Managing Director of Thai Aiways, Mr. Sorajak Kasemsuvan, is not taking chances. He said his company will conduct a major ceremony to appease the malevolent spirits said to be haunting the airport.
He is quoted as saying that the ceremony will also thank the said spirits for assisting with the successful operation to salvage the plane from the runway.
Mr. Sorajak′s comment followed a series of coverage by Thai Rath, the best-selling newspaper in Thailand, which gave extensive attention to the supposed involvement of ghosts and spirits in the accident.
Previously, Thai Rath has reported that a ghost in "traditional costume" (which strangely resembles the outfit Thai Airways flight attendants wear) has helped evacuate the passengers from the aircraft shortly after it slid off the runway.
The newspaper has also quoted Mr. Chotisak Asapaviriya, a former director of Airports Authority of Thailand (AOT), as saying that he had organised a regular prayer session to placate the vengeful spirits which reside in the airport vicinity.
At the ceremony to unveil the airport in 2006, Mr. Chotisak told Thai Rath, an official in charge of searching for explosive materials had broken down into a trance, claiming that he was being possessed by a "grandfather ghost" who demanded a shrine to be built on the airport compound. The shrine was quickly built afterwards.
Thai Rath helpfully points out that 8 major shrines have been built around Suvarnabhumi Airport by the staff in order to ward off evil spirits, such as a shrine dedicated to the Naga (holy big snake in Buddhist myths) which is presumably angered by construction of the airport on what was once a swamp inhabited by snakes.
Other smaller shrines include a strangely named "Italian Shrine".
The newspaper cited the curses of the residing ghosts as the main reason the construction of the airport had been delayed for decades. The more rational Thais, however, would point to mire of corruption that has plagued the project before the government of Thaksin Shinawatra finalised the project in late 2005.
Dr. Smith Thammasaroj, former director of Suvarnnabhumi Airport, told Thai Rath he was convinced of the existence of supernatural entities around the airport even though, he admitted, he had never encountered any particular case personally.
The scientist who once headed Thailand′s Meteorological Department said he had invited so many psychics to conduct ceremonies and constructed so many shrines "that I can′t keep count".
"We even had to build a condominium for the ghosts to reside," Dr. Smith said, "Because the spirits are so many individual spirit houses won′t be enough".
However, there has been few secular responses to the accident at Suvarnabhumi Airport on 9 September, too. Sqn.Ldr. Sitha Tiwaree, Managing Director AOT, said the authority has conducted an Emergency Plan Rehearsal, in which the airport′s fire and rescue departments took part.
The accident involving the Airbus was the most severe case at the airport since its opening 7 years ago, he said.
Sqn.Ldr. Sitha stressed that the incident will be analysed for future adjustment of the Emergency Plan, particularly how to transport passengers to the airport building - the procedure that received several complaints on 9 September. The rehearsal also pointed out that the airline crew was not familiar with the runway, causing complications during the latest accident, the director noted.
In long term, he said, the airport plans to build another substitute runway, in order to sustain further service. The AOT board will meet on Tuesday, 17 September to discuss about the construction budget, according to Sqn.Ldr. Sitha.
But it seems the spirits do not only roam the sky.
After a train headed from Malaysia to Bangkok′s Hua Lamphong Station derailed in the capital city yesterday, Daily News, the second best selling newspaper of the kingdom, reported that a certain curse might be involved.
According to Daily News, a painting at Hua Lamphong depicted a small obstacle in the rail track, which perfectly explains the frequent derailments - more than 15 incidents this year alone.
Even Transport Minister Chatchart Sitthipan, best known for his hands-on approach in inspecting problems of public transports, is mulling a paranormal hands-on solution. He has reportedly ordered the Deputy Permanent Secretary of the Ministry to consider a plan to organise a merit-making ceremony for the sake of his Ministry.
During the past few months, Mr. Chatchart noted, the country has suffered from many transport accidents such as minivan crashes, train derailments, boat crashes, and the Thai Airways incident.
"There have been more deaths than usual. Many have suggested that the Ministry of Transport needs a large-scale merit-making ceremony" Mr. Chatchart said.
14 people were injured during the evacuation from the Airbus A330-300 which skid off the runway of Suvarnabhumi Airport on 9 September.
While initial investigation pointed to a malfunctioned landing gear (the officials have not yet finished their inquiry), the Managing Director of Thai Aiways, Mr. Sorajak Kasemsuvan, is not taking chances. He said his company will conduct a major ceremony to appease the malevolent spirits said to be haunting the airport.
He is quoted as saying that the ceremony will also thank the said spirits for assisting with the successful operation to salvage the plane from the runway.
Mr. Sorajak′s comment followed a series of coverage by Thai Rath, the best-selling newspaper in Thailand, which gave extensive attention to the supposed involvement of ghosts and spirits in the accident.
Previously, Thai Rath has reported that a ghost in "traditional costume" (which strangely resembles the outfit Thai Airways flight attendants wear) has helped evacuate the passengers from the aircraft shortly after it slid off the runway.
The newspaper has also quoted Mr. Chotisak Asapaviriya, a former director of Airports Authority of Thailand (AOT), as saying that he had organised a regular prayer session to placate the vengeful spirits which reside in the airport vicinity.
At the ceremony to unveil the airport in 2006, Mr. Chotisak told Thai Rath, an official in charge of searching for explosive materials had broken down into a trance, claiming that he was being possessed by a "grandfather ghost" who demanded a shrine to be built on the airport compound. The shrine was quickly built afterwards.
Thai Rath helpfully points out that 8 major shrines have been built around Suvarnabhumi Airport by the staff in order to ward off evil spirits, such as a shrine dedicated to the Naga (holy big snake in Buddhist myths) which is presumably angered by construction of the airport on what was once a swamp inhabited by snakes.
Other smaller shrines include a strangely named "Italian Shrine".
The newspaper cited the curses of the residing ghosts as the main reason the construction of the airport had been delayed for decades. The more rational Thais, however, would point to mire of corruption that has plagued the project before the government of Thaksin Shinawatra finalised the project in late 2005.
Dr. Smith Thammasaroj, former director of Suvarnnabhumi Airport, told Thai Rath he was convinced of the existence of supernatural entities around the airport even though, he admitted, he had never encountered any particular case personally.
The scientist who once headed Thailand′s Meteorological Department said he had invited so many psychics to conduct ceremonies and constructed so many shrines "that I can′t keep count".
"We even had to build a condominium for the ghosts to reside," Dr. Smith said, "Because the spirits are so many individual spirit houses won′t be enough".
However, there has been few secular responses to the accident at Suvarnabhumi Airport on 9 September, too. Sqn.Ldr. Sitha Tiwaree, Managing Director AOT, said the authority has conducted an Emergency Plan Rehearsal, in which the airport′s fire and rescue departments took part.
The accident involving the Airbus was the most severe case at the airport since its opening 7 years ago, he said.
Sqn.Ldr. Sitha stressed that the incident will be analysed for future adjustment of the Emergency Plan, particularly how to transport passengers to the airport building - the procedure that received several complaints on 9 September. The rehearsal also pointed out that the airline crew was not familiar with the runway, causing complications during the latest accident, the director noted.
In long term, he said, the airport plans to build another substitute runway, in order to sustain further service. The AOT board will meet on Tuesday, 17 September to discuss about the construction budget, according to Sqn.Ldr. Sitha.
But it seems the spirits do not only roam the sky.
After a train headed from Malaysia to Bangkok′s Hua Lamphong Station derailed in the capital city yesterday, Daily News, the second best selling newspaper of the kingdom, reported that a certain curse might be involved.
According to Daily News, a painting at Hua Lamphong depicted a small obstacle in the rail track, which perfectly explains the frequent derailments - more than 15 incidents this year alone.
Even Transport Minister Chatchart Sitthipan, best known for his hands-on approach in inspecting problems of public transports, is mulling a paranormal hands-on solution. He has reportedly ordered the Deputy Permanent Secretary of the Ministry to consider a plan to organise a merit-making ceremony for the sake of his Ministry.
During the past few months, Mr. Chatchart noted, the country has suffered from many transport accidents such as minivan crashes, train derailments, boat crashes, and the Thai Airways incident.
"There have been more deaths than usual. Many have suggested that the Ministry of Transport needs a large-scale merit-making ceremony" Mr. Chatchart said.
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Many aircraft that have suffered considerably more damage (eg fuelage creases) have been repaired and continued to fly after incidents.
The repair or otherwise will all be financial, this A333 could be insured for anything between $25m and $60m, the insured value will have been agreed with the owner of the aircraft (be that TG or a leasing company).
The safety record in theory will not be impacted by either repairing or making the aircraft a total loss. The aircraft will be repaired in accordance with Airbus SRM and with their no technical objection.
The value of the claim will potentially impact the insurance premium for TG going forward, but with aircraft being insured on an agreed value basis, market value doesn't make a big difference on the repairability of the aircraft.
The repair or otherwise will all be financial, this A333 could be insured for anything between $25m and $60m, the insured value will have been agreed with the owner of the aircraft (be that TG or a leasing company).
The safety record in theory will not be impacted by either repairing or making the aircraft a total loss. The aircraft will be repaired in accordance with Airbus SRM and with their no technical objection.
The value of the claim will potentially impact the insurance premium for TG going forward, but with aircraft being insured on an agreed value basis, market value doesn't make a big difference on the repairability of the aircraft.
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@clipstone
is it possible to insure an airliner -like airclub planes- for much more than a new plane? In that case the owner gets richer in a crash which kills everyone under Warsow/Montreal Convention limiting the responsibility at a very low price.
is it possible to insure an airliner -like airclub planes- for much more than a new plane? In that case the owner gets richer in a crash which kills everyone under Warsow/Montreal Convention limiting the responsibility at a very low price.
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It will be interesting to see what what happens to this airframe but I suspect it will not fly in Thailand again.
For those who do not appreciate the mentality that exists from management to flightdeck the painting episode explains it all. Why they used black instead of the normal whitewash which would have been less obvious I'll never know.
This latest story reflects badly as well. No prizes for guessing why the deal fell through.
THAI Backs Out Of Sale To Saudi Prince
For those who do not appreciate the mentality that exists from management to flightdeck the painting episode explains it all. Why they used black instead of the normal whitewash which would have been less obvious I'll never know.
This latest story reflects badly as well. No prizes for guessing why the deal fell through.
FAILED PLANE DEAL SET TO FURTHER SOUR TIES
Thailand:The national carrier, which claims it had no idea Prince Faisal al-Saud was involved in the deal, insisted it will not proceed with the sale despite earlier accepting a US$2.5 million (79.5 million baht) deposit.
The move is likely to further strain diplomatic ties between Thailand and Saudi Arabia, which have been almost non-existent since the "Blue Diamond Affair" of 1989, when a Thai janitor working in the Riyadh palace of Prince Faisal stole close to 100kg of jewellery.
The aircraft in question is one of four Airbus A340-500s _ registered as HS-TLA, HS-TLB, HS-TLC and HS-TLD _ which the national carrier decommissioned and put on the market at the beginning of this year.
London-based consultancy firm AvCon Worldwide Ltd offered to buy the plane coded HS-TLD for $23.5 million and the other three for $20 million each.
THAI later agreed to sell only HS-TLD to the aviation consultancy firm, which was apparently representing Prince Faisal.
The company put down a deposit of $2.5 million three months ago.
The plane was due to be delivered to at the end of last month, but never arrived.
THAI president Sorajak Kasemsuvan told the Bangkok Post Sunday the company's offer had been forwarded to the airline's board for consideration, but the board had rejected the deal, saying the price was too low.
The airline attempted to return the deposit, but AvCon has not taken back the payment, Mr Sorajak said.
"The board didn't agree with the purchase offer, because the aircraft's book value was $66 million," the THAI president said. "If it was sold for $23 million, it would run up a recorded loss of over $40 million, which might subject [related parties] to investigation."
Mr Sorajak insisted he had no idea the Saudi prince was involved in the deal, saying THAI had been in contact only with AvCon.
However, an AvCon consultant and coordinator, who declined to be named, said the Saudi prince acknowledged the purchase offer in writing. The written acknowledgement was appended to the company's formal offer document submitted to THAI.
The consultant said the offer of $23.5 million was reasonable. The current market price of an A340-500 _ provided it meets air safety standards and has clocked up more than 3,000 hours of flight time _ range from $15 million to $18 million apiece, he said.
The four Airbus planes put up for sale, despite having low flight times, are not in a condition to fly, the AvCon representative said.
He claimed the aircraft were short on maintenance and their operational licences had expired.
He said THAI had only informed AvCon of the board's decision to reject its purchase offer via email, which is not an appropriate channel of communication for such a matter.
THAI should issue a formal letter explaining its reasons for not going through with the deal, the consultant added.
AvCon public relations representative Sakchai Pinnaree claimed the Saudi prince had hoped that, had the purchase been a success, it could boost bilateral relations between his kingdom and Thailand.
A source in THAI's committee considering the aircraft's sale said the purchase offer was submitted to the board twice before it was finally rejected.
"Paying a deposit does not amount to an absolute settlement of a deal," the source said. "If the board doesn't approve, that's the end of it."
The source admitted the plane's book value of US$66 million is unrealistic given the fast depreciation of the A340-500, but said the $23.5 million offer was still too low.
The airline believed AvCon revealed the prince's name in an attempt to keep the sale price low, the source said.
Thailand:The national carrier, which claims it had no idea Prince Faisal al-Saud was involved in the deal, insisted it will not proceed with the sale despite earlier accepting a US$2.5 million (79.5 million baht) deposit.
The move is likely to further strain diplomatic ties between Thailand and Saudi Arabia, which have been almost non-existent since the "Blue Diamond Affair" of 1989, when a Thai janitor working in the Riyadh palace of Prince Faisal stole close to 100kg of jewellery.
The aircraft in question is one of four Airbus A340-500s _ registered as HS-TLA, HS-TLB, HS-TLC and HS-TLD _ which the national carrier decommissioned and put on the market at the beginning of this year.
London-based consultancy firm AvCon Worldwide Ltd offered to buy the plane coded HS-TLD for $23.5 million and the other three for $20 million each.
THAI later agreed to sell only HS-TLD to the aviation consultancy firm, which was apparently representing Prince Faisal.
The company put down a deposit of $2.5 million three months ago.
The plane was due to be delivered to at the end of last month, but never arrived.
THAI president Sorajak Kasemsuvan told the Bangkok Post Sunday the company's offer had been forwarded to the airline's board for consideration, but the board had rejected the deal, saying the price was too low.
The airline attempted to return the deposit, but AvCon has not taken back the payment, Mr Sorajak said.
"The board didn't agree with the purchase offer, because the aircraft's book value was $66 million," the THAI president said. "If it was sold for $23 million, it would run up a recorded loss of over $40 million, which might subject [related parties] to investigation."
Mr Sorajak insisted he had no idea the Saudi prince was involved in the deal, saying THAI had been in contact only with AvCon.
However, an AvCon consultant and coordinator, who declined to be named, said the Saudi prince acknowledged the purchase offer in writing. The written acknowledgement was appended to the company's formal offer document submitted to THAI.
The consultant said the offer of $23.5 million was reasonable. The current market price of an A340-500 _ provided it meets air safety standards and has clocked up more than 3,000 hours of flight time _ range from $15 million to $18 million apiece, he said.
The four Airbus planes put up for sale, despite having low flight times, are not in a condition to fly, the AvCon representative said.
He claimed the aircraft were short on maintenance and their operational licences had expired.
He said THAI had only informed AvCon of the board's decision to reject its purchase offer via email, which is not an appropriate channel of communication for such a matter.
THAI should issue a formal letter explaining its reasons for not going through with the deal, the consultant added.
AvCon public relations representative Sakchai Pinnaree claimed the Saudi prince had hoped that, had the purchase been a success, it could boost bilateral relations between his kingdom and Thailand.
A source in THAI's committee considering the aircraft's sale said the purchase offer was submitted to the board twice before it was finally rejected.
"Paying a deposit does not amount to an absolute settlement of a deal," the source said. "If the board doesn't approve, that's the end of it."
The source admitted the plane's book value of US$66 million is unrealistic given the fast depreciation of the A340-500, but said the $23.5 million offer was still too low.
The airline believed AvCon revealed the prince's name in an attempt to keep the sale price low, the source said.
Airbus fly by wire have a "flare law" which takes over on landing causing the nose to pitch down, therefore back pressure is required to keep the nose up giving similar handling characteristics to a conventional aircraft. If the back pressure is relaxed the nose will drop causing the main wheels to lift and soften the touch down.
Airbus advise against pushing forward on the side stick but state that relaxing back pressure is acceptable. Remember that the manuals are written to cater for the lowest ability pilot and Airbus don't want incidents involving collapsed nose gear with the airlines involved pointing to the books and saying they followed the manufacturers recommendation.
Airbus advise against pushing forward on the side stick but state that relaxing back pressure is acceptable. Remember that the manuals are written to cater for the lowest ability pilot and Airbus don't want incidents involving collapsed nose gear with the airlines involved pointing to the books and saying they followed the manufacturers recommendation.
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It's impossible to guess what TG's business management will do in any given situation, so who knows whether they'll repair the airframe or not. They've got a couple of relatively new A340-500s sitting mothballed at DMK because they bought them and the direct routes they were running to LAX and JFK weren't profitable. So, you know, park them and let them sit through a flood. Probably infested with ghosts too at this point.
Money is free for TG and it's part of a very important patronage network inside the government. It is a near-total caricature of a flag carrier in that regard. Until those two things stop being true, it will be an unpredictable carrier from a business point of view.
I love flying TG, though, when their prices on a route aren't just hilarious (many government officials fly free, so who cares about prices).
Money is free for TG and it's part of a very important patronage network inside the government. It is a near-total caricature of a flag carrier in that regard. Until those two things stop being true, it will be an unpredictable carrier from a business point of view.
I love flying TG, though, when their prices on a route aren't just hilarious (many government officials fly free, so who cares about prices).
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Airbus fly by wire have a "flare law" which takes over on landing causing the nose to pitch down, therefore back pressure is required to keep the nose up giving similar handling characteristics to a conventional aircraft.
This is analogous to "kicking it straight" during a crosswind landing.
No one "kicks" a heavy swept wing jet.......at the very best you might "squeeze" the rudders.
No one "kicks" a heavy swept wing jet.......at the very best you might "squeeze" the rudders.
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Airbus fly by wire have a "flare law" which takes over on landing causing the nose to pitch down, therefore back pressure is required to keep the nose up giving similar handling characteristics to a conventional aircraft.