Thai A330 accident at BKK
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Ye olde pilot "Saving face is the primary objective hence the cover up. Only kids from wealthy or well connected families ever make it to the flight deck in a country such as Thailand. "
Not as bad as you may imagine.
The Majority of TG crews are Uni guys, or ex Air Force. Th Air Asia is quite similar. Connections are important the World over, Thailand is no exception, with the "Military boys club" being the main.
However, having worked in Vietnam, I would say the industry there is much much much more about "wealth scores a job"..and the results have shown, we just don't hear about all those incidents that they definitely covered to save face.
Source: married, live here, work here. Family & friends in TG.
Not as bad as you may imagine.
The Majority of TG crews are Uni guys, or ex Air Force. Th Air Asia is quite similar. Connections are important the World over, Thailand is no exception, with the "Military boys club" being the main.
However, having worked in Vietnam, I would say the industry there is much much much more about "wealth scores a job"..and the results have shown, we just don't hear about all those incidents that they definitely covered to save face.
Source: married, live here, work here. Family & friends in TG.
Last edited by chai ja; 10th Sep 2013 at 15:51.
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Chai ja
How right you are. To get a military flying job in Thailand requires wealth as does
the uni/self sponsored route. I've spoken to quite a few Thai pilots over a beer who recall when they were in the military certain people were not allowed to fail however bad they were.
I've spent a lot of time in Thailand but it's a bit like the curates egg.
OK in parts.
( for those who don't understand
Bishop: "I'm afraid you've got a bad egg, Mr Jones"; Curate: "Oh, no, my Lord, I assure you that parts of it are excellent!"
"True Humility" by George du Maurier, originally published in Punch, 1895.Curate's egg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
How right you are. To get a military flying job in Thailand requires wealth as does
the uni/self sponsored route. I've spoken to quite a few Thai pilots over a beer who recall when they were in the military certain people were not allowed to fail however bad they were.
I've spent a lot of time in Thailand but it's a bit like the curates egg.
OK in parts.
( for those who don't understand
Bishop: "I'm afraid you've got a bad egg, Mr Jones"; Curate: "Oh, no, my Lord, I assure you that parts of it are excellent!"
"True Humility" by George du Maurier, originally published in Punch, 1895.Curate's egg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
Last edited by Ye Olde Pilot; 10th Sep 2013 at 16:17.
Originally Posted by A33Zab
In 2007 an A330 bogie beam broke up during taxiing in Munich caused by internal corrosion.
The damage to the runway in BKK suggest the same (bogie beam failure) happened during touchdown this time.
The damage to the runway in BKK suggest the same (bogie beam failure) happened during touchdown this time.
On a different note, Star Alliance spokesperson publicly dismissed claims that painting over the logos after an incident was suggested by any alliance policy.
Last edited by andrasz; 10th Sep 2013 at 20:20.
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Well we only have their word for it.
However what could have been a minor domestic story has now made
news across the planet.
Here is the latest viz Bangkok Post
However what could have been a minor domestic story has now made
news across the planet.
Here is the latest viz Bangkok Post
Landing gear caused THAI skid
Published: 11 Sep 2013 at 00.59Online news: Local News
Authorities have blamed defective landing gear after a Thai Airways International (THAI) Airbus A330-300 plane skidded off the runway at Suvarnabhumi airport on Sunday.
Thai Airways International (THAI) staff use air flotation equipment to lift and prepare to move the damaged Airbus A330-300 aircraft, with THAI logo and name blacked out, that skidded off the runway at Suvarnabhumi airport on Sunday night.
Wiwit Deepradit, director of the Flight Standards Bureau at the Department of Civil Aviation, said Tuesday an initial investigation revealed the accident may have been caused by a faulty bogie beam, also known as a pivot, or truck beam, on the landing gear. The beam joins the two main axles of the actual gear.
Meanwhile, THAI clarified an earlier statement about the aircraft having its logo and serial number blacked out.
A THAI official had said the move was to protect the image of the airline and the Star Alliance network of carriers, which THAI belongs to.
The carrier has since issued a statement that while THAI generally practices "de-identifying" an aircraft after an accident, it is not a Star Alliance policy or procedure to de-identify planes.
The pilots had landed the plane smoothly and it had travelled along the runway for about one kilometre before the problem occurred.
Regarding the cause of the accident, Mr Wiwit said: "Everything was normal including the runway touchdown. The question is why the plane veered off the runway. So the focus is on a defect in the landing gear."
The right main landing gear of the plane, which was serving the Guangzhou-Bangkok route, reportedly collapsed.
Forty passengers were injured, with 14 taken to hospital - 12 of whom were discharged on Monday.
Suvarnabhumi operations said Dozens of arriving planes had to circle for an average of about 10 minutes, while 130 departing planes were delayed by an average of 20 minutes for a second day on Tuesday, waiting for the "anonymous" Thai Airways International plane to be moved off the runway.
"An examination shows that the plane is severely damaged, especially on its right side and engine which scraped against the runway and caused sparks due to the friction," Mr Wiwit said.
He said if the investigation concludes a defective part of the plane is to bame, the department will send the part to France for further study as Airbus is based in Toulouse.
Woradet Hanprasert, director-general of the department, said Tuesday that authorities had to find out why the landing gear malfunctioned. Another question to be answered is why a fire broke out in one engine of the plane, he said.
Suvarnabhumi air traffic control reported the fire broke out before landing, but THAI said there were sparks only during the runway incident. Two engines and a pair of tyres on the Airbus plane were damaged.
THAI chairman Ampon Kittiampon Tuesday said the incident was unavoidable, but the pilots and the attendants of the flight TG679 made the right decisions to protect the lives and property of their passengers. The crew exceeded their duties and should be appreciated by passengers, he said. Mr Ampon denied accusations on social media that some crew members ran for their lives. THAI standards are very high and if the crew had not made the right decisions there could have been a tragedy, he said.
Apinan Wannangkun, vice-president of Aeronautical Radio of Thailand Co, reported that from 7am to 3pm Tuesday 42 visiting planes had to circle for about 10 minutes, and 130 departing planes were delayed by 20 minutes on average at Suvarnabhumi airport due to the partial closure of the eastern runway where the accident happened. Airport staff had already repaired the runway.
THAI president Sorajak Kasemsuvan said the removal of the plane from the runway was completed early Wednesday.
Published: 11 Sep 2013 at 00.59Online news: Local News
Authorities have blamed defective landing gear after a Thai Airways International (THAI) Airbus A330-300 plane skidded off the runway at Suvarnabhumi airport on Sunday.
Thai Airways International (THAI) staff use air flotation equipment to lift and prepare to move the damaged Airbus A330-300 aircraft, with THAI logo and name blacked out, that skidded off the runway at Suvarnabhumi airport on Sunday night.
Wiwit Deepradit, director of the Flight Standards Bureau at the Department of Civil Aviation, said Tuesday an initial investigation revealed the accident may have been caused by a faulty bogie beam, also known as a pivot, or truck beam, on the landing gear. The beam joins the two main axles of the actual gear.
Meanwhile, THAI clarified an earlier statement about the aircraft having its logo and serial number blacked out.
A THAI official had said the move was to protect the image of the airline and the Star Alliance network of carriers, which THAI belongs to.
The carrier has since issued a statement that while THAI generally practices "de-identifying" an aircraft after an accident, it is not a Star Alliance policy or procedure to de-identify planes.
The pilots had landed the plane smoothly and it had travelled along the runway for about one kilometre before the problem occurred.
Regarding the cause of the accident, Mr Wiwit said: "Everything was normal including the runway touchdown. The question is why the plane veered off the runway. So the focus is on a defect in the landing gear."
The right main landing gear of the plane, which was serving the Guangzhou-Bangkok route, reportedly collapsed.
Forty passengers were injured, with 14 taken to hospital - 12 of whom were discharged on Monday.
Suvarnabhumi operations said Dozens of arriving planes had to circle for an average of about 10 minutes, while 130 departing planes were delayed by an average of 20 minutes for a second day on Tuesday, waiting for the "anonymous" Thai Airways International plane to be moved off the runway.
"An examination shows that the plane is severely damaged, especially on its right side and engine which scraped against the runway and caused sparks due to the friction," Mr Wiwit said.
He said if the investigation concludes a defective part of the plane is to bame, the department will send the part to France for further study as Airbus is based in Toulouse.
Woradet Hanprasert, director-general of the department, said Tuesday that authorities had to find out why the landing gear malfunctioned. Another question to be answered is why a fire broke out in one engine of the plane, he said.
Suvarnabhumi air traffic control reported the fire broke out before landing, but THAI said there were sparks only during the runway incident. Two engines and a pair of tyres on the Airbus plane were damaged.
THAI chairman Ampon Kittiampon Tuesday said the incident was unavoidable, but the pilots and the attendants of the flight TG679 made the right decisions to protect the lives and property of their passengers. The crew exceeded their duties and should be appreciated by passengers, he said. Mr Ampon denied accusations on social media that some crew members ran for their lives. THAI standards are very high and if the crew had not made the right decisions there could have been a tragedy, he said.
Apinan Wannangkun, vice-president of Aeronautical Radio of Thailand Co, reported that from 7am to 3pm Tuesday 42 visiting planes had to circle for about 10 minutes, and 130 departing planes were delayed by 20 minutes on average at Suvarnabhumi airport due to the partial closure of the eastern runway where the accident happened. Airport staff had already repaired the runway.
THAI president Sorajak Kasemsuvan said the removal of the plane from the runway was completed early Wednesday.
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Here is a prime example of Thailand's hide the truth philosophy;
Social media = lies
I'm trying to think if that sort of mindset could possibly exist in any other
SE Asia country?
THAI chairman Ampon Kittiampon Tuesday said the incident was unavoidable, but the pilots and the attendants of the flight TG679 made the right decisions to protect the lives and property of their passengers. The crew exceeded their duties and should be appreciated by passengers, he said. Mr Ampon denied accusations on social media that some crew members ran for their lives. THAI standards are very high and if the crew had not made the right decisions there could have been a tragedy, he said.
I'm trying to think if that sort of mindset could possibly exist in any other
SE Asia country?
Last edited by Ye Olde Pilot; 10th Sep 2013 at 20:48.
YOP, you speak with the wisdom of someone who knows the region well...
In this particular case I would still give them the benefit of doubt, the ground tracks also appear to confirm that this was a known failure mode on a relatively old airframe, and the crew riding it out could have had nothing to do with it. The hard landing that triggered it could have been weeks or months earlier.
The real disaster here was the PR...
In this particular case I would still give them the benefit of doubt, the ground tracks also appear to confirm that this was a known failure mode on a relatively old airframe, and the crew riding it out could have had nothing to do with it. The hard landing that triggered it could have been weeks or months earlier.
The real disaster here was the PR...
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Most, yes. Thailand just projects a lot more because of its comparably high economic heft and its visibility as a major international destination. SQ would react more professionally, surely, as well as Air Asia. TG fired their last CEO for doing his job and creating waves with the massive patronage network that the company is.
Social Media has been pretty hilarious here because Bangkok is the world's most facebook-connected city and many Thai companies and high profile individuals have no idea how to deal with actually being held accountable, so the result can be pretty entertaining. The Asiatique Double Pricing fiasco was was a good example. The underlying issue was kind of small, but they went bonkers, banned people left and right on facebook, basically lied and then closed their page before someone presumably explained that this doesn't work in 2013.
Whole region's just coming to terms with this concept of public accountability and Thailand's also going through continued political upheaval on its slow march to something approaching representative democracy, so we're used to it here. The Deputy PM's son shot a decorated cop in the face, killed witnesses and got off the charges - and was recently rewarded with a police sniper job (not a joke) thanks to daddy. It's day in day out.
I live here and love the place, but, no, the privilege associated with wealth does not manifest itself the same way it does in countries like Norway or even the US. In such countries, privilege and wealth might afford you a high percentage shot at avoiding penalties for your actions. In Thailand it affords you a 100% chance of avoiding penalties, something you know in advance, so you act with impunity. This is a bit of a derail, though, but look into the Thai legal system for just high profile examples (Vorayuth, Mu Ham, Duang Yubamrung, etc). Great place to live, don't get crossways with someone wealthy.
Social Media has been pretty hilarious here because Bangkok is the world's most facebook-connected city and many Thai companies and high profile individuals have no idea how to deal with actually being held accountable, so the result can be pretty entertaining. The Asiatique Double Pricing fiasco was was a good example. The underlying issue was kind of small, but they went bonkers, banned people left and right on facebook, basically lied and then closed their page before someone presumably explained that this doesn't work in 2013.
Whole region's just coming to terms with this concept of public accountability and Thailand's also going through continued political upheaval on its slow march to something approaching representative democracy, so we're used to it here. The Deputy PM's son shot a decorated cop in the face, killed witnesses and got off the charges - and was recently rewarded with a police sniper job (not a joke) thanks to daddy. It's day in day out.
I live here and love the place, but, no, the privilege associated with wealth does not manifest itself the same way it does in countries like Norway or even the US. In such countries, privilege and wealth might afford you a high percentage shot at avoiding penalties for your actions. In Thailand it affords you a 100% chance of avoiding penalties, something you know in advance, so you act with impunity. This is a bit of a derail, though, but look into the Thai legal system for just high profile examples (Vorayuth, Mu Ham, Duang Yubamrung, etc). Great place to live, don't get crossways with someone wealthy.
Last edited by Bangkokian; 11th Sep 2013 at 10:54.
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Why are people so eager to knock Thailand ? Privilege associated with wealth and connections is the same the world over. Always has been, always will be. The extent of the subtlety and publicity may vary, that's all.
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@WH
Well said. Those who knock Thai / Philippine/Asian politics are the ones who "forget" how thing worked in the "Good Old Days" in the UK.
We were as bad. Probably worse.
We were as bad. Probably worse.
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Slides
Re:: The injuries and the complaint that the slides did not reach ground.
There was a similar incident in (I think) AUH when a Gulf Air plane aborted take off shortly after leaving the ground (the pilot blamed microburst but was blamed and dismissed anyway).
The same thing happened, the plane was nose down in the sand off the runway, the crew opened the slides, and passengers basically went out of the rear door(s) vertically into the ground, where most of the injuries were broken legs, etc. No fatalities thank heavens although one of the cabin crew broke her back, thankfully recovered.
Does this not merit some kind of design change?
(Note: This one was painted entirely white very quickly as well!).
There was a similar incident in (I think) AUH when a Gulf Air plane aborted take off shortly after leaving the ground (the pilot blamed microburst but was blamed and dismissed anyway).
The same thing happened, the plane was nose down in the sand off the runway, the crew opened the slides, and passengers basically went out of the rear door(s) vertically into the ground, where most of the injuries were broken legs, etc. No fatalities thank heavens although one of the cabin crew broke her back, thankfully recovered.
Does this not merit some kind of design change?
(Note: This one was painted entirely white very quickly as well!).
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Why are people so eager to knock Thailand ? Privilege associated with wealth and connections is the same the world over. Always has been, always will be. The extent of the subtlety and publicity may vary, that's all.
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Thai Airways are pointing the finger of blame at Airbus.
Source Bangkok Post
Thai Airways International (THAI) said Wednesday it had encountered problems with landing gear on its Airbus A330-300 fleet prior to Sunday night's landing mishap.
Part of the landing gear had also been subject to an aviation watchdog warning.
The Thai Airways International Airbus A330-300 that skidded off the runway at Suvarnabhumi airport on Sunday night was nudged out of the mud and moved to a nearby hangar Wednesday afternoon.
THAI executive vice-president for the technical department, Flt Lt Montree Jumrieng, said Wednesday that preliminary testing showed the accident was the result of a defective bogie beam on the aircraft's landing gear. He said the faulty part caused the gear to collapse about 1km down the runway.
A bogie beam connects the wheels on an aircraft's landing gear horizontally and allows them to pivot on takeoff and landing.
According to Flt Lt Montree, Airbus recommended close surveillance of the bogie beams of its A330-300 planes when THAI ordered them. The landing gear was manufactured by French-based firm Messier-Bugatti-Dowty Co.
The European Aviation Safety Authority (EASA) issued an emergency airworthiness directive on June 29, 2011, about the landing gear of some Airbus aircraft series, including the A330-300.
The directive said during ground load test cycles, the main landing gear (MLG) bogie beam prematurely fractured as a result of its assembly method.
"Fracture of a MLG bogie beam under high speed could ultimately result in the aeroplane departing the runway, or in the bogie detaching from the aeroplane, or MLG collapse, which could cause structural damage to the aeroplane and injury to the occupants," the directive read.
EASA ordered a reduction in the existing MLG bogie beam life cycle.
"The bogie beam has a life span of 10 years and [the one which broke on Sunday] had not been replaced since it was first installed [in 2004]. But I can confirm that it was checked every two years," Flt Lt Montree said.
He said that due to the warning from Airbus, THAI checked the landing gear every two years and Airbus staff always took part in the inspections.
"We found[cracks on the bogie beams] on some of our A330-300 aircraft after three to four rounds of maintenance.
The affected parts were replaced," he said, stressing that THAI adheres strictly to maintenance regulations.
He said the airline operates 27 Airbus A330-300 aircraft. The plane involved in Sunday's accident was delivered in 1995 and was among the first batch of 12 A330-300s that THAI purchased.
This group of aircraft is due to be decommissioned between next year and 2017.
The bogie beam involved in Sunday's accident was last checked in February last year, when it was found to be in a usable condition, Flt Lt Montree said.
He added that the plane involved in the accident would require two new engines and three new bogie beams.
THAI senior executive vice-president Chokchai Panyayong said the landing accident had caused serious damage to the aircraft.
The plane was removed from Suvarnabhumi's eastern runway about 3.30pm Wednesday, and the runway was reopened at 8.10pm.
THAI president Sorajak Kasemsuvan had conducted a ceremony to pray for the smooth removal of the plane Wednesday morning after heavy rain delayed salvage efforts on Tuesday night.
Part of the landing gear had also been subject to an aviation watchdog warning.
The Thai Airways International Airbus A330-300 that skidded off the runway at Suvarnabhumi airport on Sunday night was nudged out of the mud and moved to a nearby hangar Wednesday afternoon.
THAI executive vice-president for the technical department, Flt Lt Montree Jumrieng, said Wednesday that preliminary testing showed the accident was the result of a defective bogie beam on the aircraft's landing gear. He said the faulty part caused the gear to collapse about 1km down the runway.
A bogie beam connects the wheels on an aircraft's landing gear horizontally and allows them to pivot on takeoff and landing.
According to Flt Lt Montree, Airbus recommended close surveillance of the bogie beams of its A330-300 planes when THAI ordered them. The landing gear was manufactured by French-based firm Messier-Bugatti-Dowty Co.
The European Aviation Safety Authority (EASA) issued an emergency airworthiness directive on June 29, 2011, about the landing gear of some Airbus aircraft series, including the A330-300.
The directive said during ground load test cycles, the main landing gear (MLG) bogie beam prematurely fractured as a result of its assembly method.
"Fracture of a MLG bogie beam under high speed could ultimately result in the aeroplane departing the runway, or in the bogie detaching from the aeroplane, or MLG collapse, which could cause structural damage to the aeroplane and injury to the occupants," the directive read.
EASA ordered a reduction in the existing MLG bogie beam life cycle.
"The bogie beam has a life span of 10 years and [the one which broke on Sunday] had not been replaced since it was first installed [in 2004]. But I can confirm that it was checked every two years," Flt Lt Montree said.
He said that due to the warning from Airbus, THAI checked the landing gear every two years and Airbus staff always took part in the inspections.
"We found[cracks on the bogie beams] on some of our A330-300 aircraft after three to four rounds of maintenance.
The affected parts were replaced," he said, stressing that THAI adheres strictly to maintenance regulations.
He said the airline operates 27 Airbus A330-300 aircraft. The plane involved in Sunday's accident was delivered in 1995 and was among the first batch of 12 A330-300s that THAI purchased.
This group of aircraft is due to be decommissioned between next year and 2017.
The bogie beam involved in Sunday's accident was last checked in February last year, when it was found to be in a usable condition, Flt Lt Montree said.
He added that the plane involved in the accident would require two new engines and three new bogie beams.
THAI senior executive vice-president Chokchai Panyayong said the landing accident had caused serious damage to the aircraft.
The plane was removed from Suvarnabhumi's eastern runway about 3.30pm Wednesday, and the runway was reopened at 8.10pm.
THAI president Sorajak Kasemsuvan had conducted a ceremony to pray for the smooth removal of the plane Wednesday morning after heavy rain delayed salvage efforts on Tuesday night.
Thai Airways are pointing the finger of blame at Airbus.
Did they perchance mess up an inspection and miss seeing a crack?
All the more reason to let an official investigation proceed and look for any changes in the maintenance manual for lessons learned by any party
Does this not merit some kind of design change?
CC are not required to do anything with these slides differently EXCEPT if they fail to deploy- in which case the aircraft alerts that this has occured via a light and buzzer "SLIDE NOT READY".... in which case pax to be directed to alternate exits.
I suppose any new model from now on would take this into consideration.
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If there has been serious damage done to the aircraft, including needing two new engines... and it is about to be replaced... wouldn't it be better to write the aircraft off? Or would this reflect badly on its safety record?
Quote: Originally Posted by Al Murdoch
Stop guessing!
Do you know the Thai policy on evacuation?
In my previous company the CC could initiate an evacuation themselves in cases of obvious fire, smoke, aircraft in bits or resting at an extreme attitude.
Stop guessing!
Do you know the Thai policy on evacuation?
In my previous company the CC could initiate an evacuation themselves in cases of obvious fire, smoke, aircraft in bits or resting at an extreme attitude.
quote: originally posted by Cap'n.Bloggs
1. Nope.
2. Silly previous company.
1. Nope.
2. Silly previous company.
Silly Airbus, eh?
You should go up there and tell them how to design their aircraft. You obviously know better than everybody else.
Quite a common conceit in this business unfortunately.
N4790P
I wouldn't believe what the media are reporting. I understand that the left engine is undamaged and the only the right made contact with the ground. Obviously will be replaced but repairable. Also understand that landing gear issues are being somewhat overstated too.
Last edited by ZFT; 12th Sep 2013 at 02:32.
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I wouldn't believe what the media are reporting. I understand that the left engine is undamaged and the only the right made contact with the ground. Obviously will be replaced but repairable. Also understand that landing gear issues are being somewhat overstated too.
However I will agree with your remarks about the media.
Never trust the Thai media and only slightly less any press releases.