Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Standard of RT in USA

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Standard of RT in USA

Old 15th Jul 2013, 03:39
  #141 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: .
Posts: 283
The aircraft type filed on the plan is not always the actual type that is being used. When doing final approach spacing down to the minimums, we need to be sure that the aircraft is the type we are expecting. Happens more often than you would think.
Defruiter is offline  
Old 15th Jul 2013, 06:36
  #142 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: world
Posts: 3,423
Many years ago I spent some time as an ATC simulator pilot for trainee controllers. I used a whole spectrum of accents and phraseology standards with my “pilot” r/t. Instructors and trainees were amused. I told them that in fact my intention wasn’t to be amusing but simply trying to introduce them to the real world of ATC r/t. Many trainees later came back to me after their first live r/t experiences stating that my r/t “acting” had come in useful.

I like both the British and American phraseology. It really doesn’t bother me at all. Although it is generally getting better these days, the only criticism I have is that some US controllers still need to slow down their delivery rate a little when speaking to certain nationalities.
Hotel Tango is offline  
Old 15th Jul 2013, 08:05
  #143 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: EHAA
Posts: 69
The americans say "xxx Heavy" everywhere, and the brits feel obliged to tell departure on which SID, pass alt, cleared level they are to everyone,
eventhough nobody seem to care outside the UK.

(And before any dutch start rambling about ATC in AMS which is good, sorry but a bit to gash generally !! )
Indeed, always a pleasure to have British crews also tell me the QNH, the ATIS letter, Aircraft-type and the arrival they are expecting. Luckily most of the time they don't do it when the freq. is busy!

I'll try to be less gash next time!
Surferboy is offline  
Old 15th Jul 2013, 09:10
  #144 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Out of a bag
Posts: 562
Originally Posted by Pucka View Post
... I know of no other airport where I have to call DIRECTOR with call sign only...
Not flown into Amsterdam Schipol then?
Flying Wild is offline  
Old 15th Jul 2013, 09:15
  #145 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: schermoney and left front seat
Age: 54
Posts: 2,367
which SID, pass alt, cleared level
Thats how we do it as well.

I´m German, from the formerly (or still?) US occupied part.

Although overweight, I refrain from calling myself 'heavy'...

Sorry if thats wrong.

Last edited by His dudeness; 15th Jul 2013 at 09:18.
His dudeness is offline  
Old 15th Jul 2013, 09:32
  #146 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: A tropical island.
Posts: 460
Pucka, every airport has it's unique elements, but to say that a US controller would have difficulty adjusting to how busy Heathrow is, well that's just something I don't buy.

As I said this is by aircraft movements.

CLT was comparable until they added the third runway in 2010 it has an additional long parallel runway. LAS is also comparable. The busier airports like ATL, ORD, JFK, etc. all have more runways simply because they need them to handle the volume of traffic. LHR would need to almost double it's traffic to approach ATL.

I also don't think LHR controllers would have much difficulty going the other way.
aviatorhi is offline  
Old 15th Jul 2013, 09:43
  #147 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: England
Posts: 1,955
All this talk of ours is busier than yours that's why we are gash is nonsense.

The busier an airport the more important it is to get the message across clearly (and yes that includes to foreigners who haven't got English as a first language), the first time. That's why we have standards and standard phraseology etc.
Lord Spandex Masher is offline  
Old 15th Jul 2013, 11:02
  #148 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 285
Avia, Paola if I implied US airports wouldn't hack it at LHR..I certainly didn't mean that in the slightest..it was just to get the definition of BUSY ATC sorted in the aviation context. I am certain that given role exchanges twist LHR and US ATC, the world would be a little more colorful, a tadge less stuck up and a bit less arrogant!
Yes..AMS and this DIRECTOR thingy..strangely after operating in there for a pretty long time..since 1980 ish..I can't recall.."call director call sign only".. Must either be early onset...or I am so gash they don't trust me!!!
Pucka is offline  
Old 15th Jul 2013, 14:21
  #149 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: EHAA
Posts: 69
IIRC it's in the charts to check in with AMS Approach with c/s only.
Surferboy is offline  
Old 15th Jul 2013, 16:10
  #150 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: surfing, watching for sharks
Posts: 3,605
I find myself in the odd position of agreeing with spandex, standard phraseology is good. That standard RT needs to change in the future to a less verbose standard however.
West Coast is online now  
Old 15th Jul 2013, 17:51
  #151 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Texas
Age: 61
Posts: 5,581
6. Do the Americans actually go on a course of instruction to adopt that lazy comfortable southern drawl
We can't tell you, or we'd have to kill you. PS: the folks at LaGuardia sure as hell don't speak with a drawl.

Eclan:
your post full of whinging is noted.

I like clear concise R/T comms, but that may be due to having been an instructor for years and harping on
Who
Where
What
radio call formats to teach newbies why we say things the way we do over the radio, in the order we say them. (PTAPTP ... oh, wait, we are all radar covered now, right? )
"Sir, why do we say niner"
"Because nine and five sould too much alike when the radio is a bit scratchy"
"Sir, why do we say zero instead of oh?"
"Because clarity is important in communication"
"Why do we say .Pan Pan Pan" (Or, as I was once informed, "pan pan, pan pan, pan pan" )
"Because it's Spanish for bread, and when it's in the pan your goose is cooked." I had a flight student do a double take when I slipped that one in ... we had a good laugh over it.

Keke
For goodness sake, some version of 'English' is understood by 99% of all pilots and controllers, as long as it's broadcast at the rate of a Texan drawl to those who are not native 'English' speakers
An actual Texan drawl/twang if delivered in rapid rhythm isn't really a drawl.
The person well above you who spoke about a "high speed drawl" may have misunderstood what a drawl is ...

Phil
So I presume that the US Armed Forces Air Traffic Controllers go along with the abbreviated terminology of their civil cousins ?
Why do you presume that? Brevity has its own virtues, and traps, in military comms.
The busier an airport the more important it is to get the message across clearly (and yes that includes to foreigners who haven't got English as a first language), the first time.
Of course it is. Brevity and clarity in communication was also the original point of using terms like "roger" to indicate something, and "out" to indicate something else, and "over" to indicate end of a transmission that expected a reply.

And so on.

Pet Peeve:

Readback of clearance strikes me as a place where there is NO room for paraphrasing instructions. Clearance is a critical part of the pilot/controller interface in terms of safety and 'getting it right' together., whether one is on the ground or inflight.

This includes taxi instructions.

Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 15th Jul 2013 at 17:58.
Lonewolf_50 is offline  
Old 15th Jul 2013, 21:25
  #152 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: US
Posts: 2,193
British ATC is falling apart. Last trip the controllers said "have a nice day". At least twice. Pleasant chaps. Maybe they're married to U.S. women.
misd-agin is offline  
Old 15th Jul 2013, 21:48
  #153 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Cloud Cookoo Land
Posts: 1,271
Leave off the Yanks, they might be "non-standard" but they're not unsafe.

What's unsafe is how controllers and pilots across many major TMAs and international airports insist on speaking in their native tongue which degrades situational awareness and adds to workload. It's killed before and I'm positive it will do so again. This isn't a business for second guessing.

And I'm not one of these "I speak English so everybody bloody should" types. There's a time and a place.

Last edited by Callsign Kilo; 15th Jul 2013 at 21:49.
Callsign Kilo is offline  
Old 15th Jul 2013, 23:08
  #154 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: CYZV
Age: 73
Posts: 1,259
I'd love to see any ATC in the USA try and manage Heathrow for an hour...
Is that with or without a snowstorm?
pigboat is offline  
Old 15th Jul 2013, 23:35
  #155 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Where the Quaboag River flows, USA
Age: 67
Posts: 3,332
Heathrow has no problem with a snowstorm--airport closed, no planes, no problem. Mind you, it would a snow storm you can see the blades of grass through the snow cover.
galaxy flyer is online now  
Old 16th Jul 2013, 00:37
  #156 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: surfing, watching for sharks
Posts: 3,605
The folks at DFW, airlines, ATC and airport ops pretty much do the same at the first sigh of an ice storm. Guess its cheaper overall to park 'em for the one a year storm than keep all the equipment in place.
West Coast is online now  
Old 16th Jul 2013, 00:45
  #157 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Devonshire
Age: 92
Posts: 300
Some may recall that in the late 1940s that there was a proposal made to PICAO ( Provisional ICAO, I think) that Spanish should be the "Language of the Air". I cannot recall which countries made this proposal.

The U.S.A. said ... "NO"

Thank heavens !

An alternative, then, might have been an expanded Q-Code, to be done in Morse Code, just to make it " International...".

Last edited by Linktrained; 16th Jul 2013 at 00:48.
Linktrained is offline  
Old 16th Jul 2013, 01:07
  #158 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Where the Quaboag River flows, USA
Age: 67
Posts: 3,332
Why would Spanish possibly been considered? They weren't one of the four powers that won the war, even the Russians only grudgingly participated in the Chicago Convention. Everything ICAO is in the powers' languages.

GF

Last edited by galaxy flyer; 16th Jul 2013 at 01:08.
galaxy flyer is online now  
Old 16th Jul 2013, 01:43
  #159 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: In my seat
Posts: 822
When ICAO decided on the Common Aviation Language, Spanish was indeed set to win. However, the USA bribed Mexico which voted for English...
True story.

Nothing to do with any war by the way.
despegue is offline  
Old 16th Jul 2013, 03:13
  #160 (permalink)  
I call you back
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Alpha quadrant
Posts: 355
Leave off the Yanks, they might be "non-standard" but they're not unsafe.
Watch the whole thing and tell us what you think:
?rel=0" frameborder="0" gesture="media" allow="encrypted-media" allowfullscreen>
Faire d'income is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Show Printable Version
Email this Page

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.