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Standard of RT in USA

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Standard of RT in USA

Old 7th Aug 2013, 08:24
  #361 (permalink)  
 
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Confirming correct read backs is very distracting I find, (apart from initial clearances).

Going into parts of the Caribbean, the controllers always come back and say "correct" (or sometimes even "callsign correct") about 3 seconds after you have correctly read back!

This is very distracting, because supposing they have just cleared you to 'descend flight level 250'; you read that back, then the pilot flying starts to say in the cockpit; "Mach descent, flight level 250......" as s/he is making the appropriate selections. Then; halfway through, the controller 'interrupts' to say "correct", or "callsign correct". Both pilots then have to stop what they were saying and doing and listen to this 'new clearance'. When this is finished, they then have to go back and make the SOP calls for the descent again to make sure they are doing the right thing. Drives me mad every time!

Last edited by Uplinker; 7th Aug 2013 at 08:31.
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Old 7th Aug 2013, 17:46
  #362 (permalink)  
jxk
 
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The reason the phonetic codes were changed and agreed was presumably so that there would be no ambiguity and less confusion between all nationalities and dialects this is also presumably the reason that a standard phraseology was determined by the ICAO.

Romeo Roger?

Last edited by jxk; 8th Aug 2013 at 06:37.
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Old 7th Aug 2013, 19:50
  #363 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by West Coast View Post
I'm sure Sully's RT wasn't the greatest that day..
Apropos of nothing, his comms on that day seemed right on the button based on what I've read. Additionally, check the ATC tape of his last departure from Ft. Lauderdale on his retirement day:


Departure controller is gushing away (as well he may), but Sully himself keeps his transmissions terse and to the point because he's a pro and knows that the frequency needs to be as clear as possible.
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Old 8th Aug 2013, 00:30
  #364 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Eclan

I wouldn't go using the JFK/China exchange as an example of anything other than disgraceful controlling.
What's disgraceful is entrusting half a thousand lives to a guy who can't tell a statement from a question.
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Old 11th Aug 2013, 03:04
  #365 (permalink)  
 
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Daily D. Dave -

"Firstly I've never heard that in my life and I'm guessing I fly in the UK far more than you do."


That's the first you've heard "Climb Level 400"? Pronounced 'four hundred'. Isn't that the standard call and correct RT? I'm feeling stupid right now because I've heard it numerous times and didn't realize it wasn't 'approved' RT. What is the correct RT?
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Old 11th Aug 2013, 03:42
  #366 (permalink)  
 
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"Climb Level 400"? Pronounced 'four hundred'. Isn't that the standard call and correct RT?
We had a few years of "Four Hundred" for headings and flight levels but are now back to "Four Zero Zero", I assume because that's because it's the current ICAO way.
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Old 11th Aug 2013, 07:33
  #367 (permalink)  
 
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Good Lord! By page TREE, I was "with you" enjoying a level FIFE headache!

I will start by saying this: ICAO standard does not help anyone who cannot read, speak and COMPREHEND the English language.

Why is the accident rate so low in the US which, by far, has the highest amount of air traffic? Yes, douchiness abounds on the US airwaves, but no more than some ass hat who refuses to speak English because he is in his home airspace. Like many of you, I've flown all over the world. Experience tells me that, though not perfect, the US is the easiest place to communicate.

I don't believe it is laziness and know for certain that it is not inability with US controllers. I hear controllers constantly shift gears to assist a "LEVEL 5" English speakers in busy Northeastern US/Chicago/Los Angeles/San Francisco airspace. US Air Traffic Controllers are the finest in the world with the UK, Belgium, Netherlands and Germany being excellent as well.

I have NEVER heard Lufthansa, BA, Air France, KLM, Brussels, Alitalia, SAS, Cathay, Singapore, JAL, ANA, Korean, SAA or hell...even Turkish or Iberia...struggle in US airspace. Aeroflot? LOT? Saudi Arabian? Egyptair? Ethiopian? China Southern? China Air Lines? Well...er...again: The issue is not ICAO RT, it is the ability to read, speak and COMPREHEND English.

Some US regional airline pilots are genuine turds in the punchbowl with regard to radio phraseology, but not enough to lower the bar to even a comparable level experienced all throughout Eastern Europe, CIS, 99.99675 percent of Africa, the Middle East (is Insha'Allah ICAO?), India, Indonesia, China, Mexico and nearly all of South America and other noteworthy locales.

It's amazing to me the utter garbage that is spewed on the radios all over the world, yet people like to piss about the US system. It smells of sour grapes.

Oh, and what is wrong with "read back correct" for clearances in the US? In some of the nether regions, reading back clearances and getting "read back correct" only assures that you've regurgitated what some half wit has given you as you back taxi past goats and villagers down the runway of some third world shit show airport. In the US, at least you know the clearance you've been given and read back will keep you alive if adhered to.
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Old 11th Aug 2013, 10:40
  #368 (permalink)  
 
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Why is the accident rate so low in the US which, by far, has the highest amount of air traffic?
Actually, the accident rate in Asia is lower than in USA. (accidents per million departures)

ICAO 2012 Safety Report p11

ICAO 2011 State of Global Aviation Safety p13
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Old 11th Aug 2013, 12:47
  #369 (permalink)  
 
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mross:

Actually, the accident rate in Asia is lower than in USA. (accidents per million departures)
You don't get the full picture without including the number of fatal accidents.
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Old 11th Aug 2013, 17:17
  #370 (permalink)  
 
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We had a few years of "Four Hundred" for headings and flight levels but are now back to "Four Zero Zero", I assume because that's because it's the current ICAO way.

"Flight Level 100 (One Hundred)" "200", "300" is a common radio call. So much so that I'm surprised to read that it's not approved.

Maybe we should start a thread about the standard of UK RT?
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Old 11th Aug 2013, 19:16
  #371 (permalink)  
 
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read CAP

"Flight Level 100 (One Hundred)" "200", "300" is a common radio call. So much so that I'm surprised to read that it's not approved.

Maybe we should start a thread about the standard of UK RT?
It is standard in UK. cap413 Ch2 p7 and, yes, it has been notified to IACO!

Last edited by mross; 11th Aug 2013 at 19:23.
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Old 11th Aug 2013, 20:59
  #372 (permalink)  
 
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http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP%204...ition%2021.pdf


Ch. 2, page 7.

"Flight Level One Hundred" = FL100.
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Old 12th Aug 2013, 13:10
  #373 (permalink)  
 
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US R/T is smooth and efficient and works.

Go fly someplace else!
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Old 12th Aug 2013, 13:16
  #374 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by West Coast
I'm sure Sully's RT wasn't the greatest that day..

What exactly was wrong with Sully's R/T?
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Old 12th Aug 2013, 17:09
  #375 (permalink)  
 
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Thread should have been closed after one page.

If there is a standard and a country is part of that standard, then said countries should adhere fully to said standard.

Deviation can only lead to mistakes - and no doubt has in the past.
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Old 12th Aug 2013, 19:56
  #376 (permalink)  
 
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reply to Hell Man

US R/T is smooth and efficient and works. Go fly someplace else!
For Americans in America, yes . Aviation is international and Americans need to abide by internationally agreed procedures at home and abroad. As do we all.

Last edited by mross; 12th Aug 2013 at 19:57.
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Old 12th Aug 2013, 20:41
  #377 (permalink)  
 
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Hear what you're sayin' guys, just not sure if it'll catch on this side.

We kinda like it how it is!
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Old 13th Aug 2013, 22:23
  #378 (permalink)  
 
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Flight level 100, 200 etc is an ICAO variation in the UK. When UK ATC issue a heading not ending in a '5', they will say 'degrees' to avoid confusion with any flight level clearance.

In general, tho' US ATC is 'different' from some in Europe, it is, in general far far better than in some FIR's world wide.

My only real whine is New York approach - I know it's very busy airspace and with EWR, JFK & LGA + Teterboro' things are all a bit adjacent. Sometimes the Tracon guys speak sooo fast, and then.... silence as the freq is not that busy at that time.

Actually, one more comment. 123.45 on the Ocean is intended for messages of "Air Traffic Advisory" between aircraft, not lengthy chats about terms and conditions or for fools with new mobile ring tones. Sorry, thread drift
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Old 13th Aug 2013, 23:13
  #379 (permalink)  
 
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Hell man

Nothing wrong as far as I'm concerned.

One poster here tried to tie RT to professionalism. Sully's RT before and after the bird strike wasn't in exacting compliance some of the pedants here advocate yet we both know the outcome. My point is trying tie overall professionalism to RT comes up a bit short on accuracy.

He now has a drink named after him. The "sully" two shots of grey goose and a splash of water.
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Old 14th Aug 2013, 01:03
  #380 (permalink)  
 
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In most of the en route structure of the U.S., the controllers observe ICAO protocol almost to a fault.

Delta 245 is level at Flight Level 260 and anticipating clearance to Flight Level 400.

"Delta two four five, climb and maintain flight level four zero zero."

What could be better than that?

Sadly to say, most U.S. pilots are not nearly as conforming.
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