Standard of RT in USA
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Bah. Who needs atc or radio. Our local airfield at its busiest has 200+ movements per hour without either.
From our pre-mission briefing I knew that the FAA was enroute in one of their DC-9s with a portable ATC tower and ATC controllers. But they had been delayed. We also knew that there were quite a few other aircraft inbound.
So after I talked to the PIC of the C-141, we was decided that we would use the 727 as make do ATC 'advisory' point. We pilots took turns relaying radio calls and positron reports from the inbound aircraft for about six hours until the FAA DC-9 showed up. Then while the temporary control tower was being set up the FAA controllers that were in the DC-9 worked from the 727.
Overall it worked pretty good, but I can tell you that we damn happy when those FAA ATC controllers showed up.
One big advantage we had was that weather was perfectly clear. A beautiful day actually.
And we did have a secret advantage, my co-pilot that day was a former ATC controller and about after two hours or so later two local ATC controllers showed up to help. Later an Air Force AWAC 135 came on station orbiting the island providing radar service and coordination with San Juan. But that was after I had left heading back to Miami to dump prisoners, get more water/ice and more SOG team members.
Remarkable how when people work together, things get done.
Okay, now you lot can go back to bashing the US.
obgraham, you said:
There is no "our way/your way" there is the ICAO way which we ALL voted for (including the USA) and then there is the lazy way.
THAT is the point. Many of the transmissions in the USA don't conform to ANY standard, at times they are amusing, at times they are confusing, at times they are unexpected phrases which require interpretation.
430 odd posts and you didn't see that?
We all do it this way. You have to do it our way.
No. We like our way.
We all got together and voted that you do it our way.
No. Your way isn't our way.
No. We like our way.
We all got together and voted that you do it our way.
No. Your way isn't our way.
THAT is the point. Many of the transmissions in the USA don't conform to ANY standard, at times they are amusing, at times they are confusing, at times they are unexpected phrases which require interpretation.
430 odd posts and you didn't see that?
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583 reasons to get right
583 fatalities in Tenerife ! - and it is still debated?
But that was March 27th 1977
I guess the Old pilots who learned from that are now retired
just the Bold pilots...
Audio podcast (from transcripts) says it all
How Pilots Killed People with the Wrong Words
Of the many holes in that Swiss cheese model, the RT slice was key.
But that was March 27th 1977
I guess the Old pilots who learned from that are now retired
just the Bold pilots...
Audio podcast (from transcripts) says it all
How Pilots Killed People with the Wrong Words
Of the many holes in that Swiss cheese model, the RT slice was key.
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Con-Pilot, it may surprise you, but the scenario you quote us not unique to the USA. The really sad bit is that it appears there are those here who believe that only the USA is cable of such feats.
When will you guys wake up and realise that there is a world of intelligent beings out here? Instead of telling us you are the best, why don't you try and work with us, thus convincing us you are pretty damn good?
When will you guys wake up and realise that there is a world of intelligent beings out here? Instead of telling us you are the best, why don't you try and work with us, thus convincing us you are pretty damn good?
Last edited by Cows getting bigger; 23rd Aug 2013 at 17:56.
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It seems to me that the vast majority of professionals here agree that it makes good sense for all of the world's pilots to communicate in a standardized fashion.
A small minority of US based posters, and probably those who don't even posses passports (population 313 million, passports issued only 110 million) can only put forward the notion that "when you come to USA, do it our way." In reality I suspect that those putting forward this view are merely grabbing at straws in an attempt to save face. It's a peculiar but not entirely unpredictable reaction from any vociferous preacher of democracy; democracy is fine but only if applied in line with my rules.
The thread has run its course. For the last sixty years ICAO, and those members of it who represent the US interests, have introduced standards and practices. All member states have agreed to play by the rules that they collectively and democratically decided were in the best interst of flight safety. The carraige of emergency equipment, airport lighting, design of approach procedures, and a host of other components that make it possible for operators of all nations to interact on the same global playing field were agreed upon by the US.
Most US residents don't even get out of their home state, let alone the country, so its hardly surprising that they are unable to adapt to the principle of global democracy, even in our line of work.
A small minority of US based posters, and probably those who don't even posses passports (population 313 million, passports issued only 110 million) can only put forward the notion that "when you come to USA, do it our way." In reality I suspect that those putting forward this view are merely grabbing at straws in an attempt to save face. It's a peculiar but not entirely unpredictable reaction from any vociferous preacher of democracy; democracy is fine but only if applied in line with my rules.
The thread has run its course. For the last sixty years ICAO, and those members of it who represent the US interests, have introduced standards and practices. All member states have agreed to play by the rules that they collectively and democratically decided were in the best interst of flight safety. The carraige of emergency equipment, airport lighting, design of approach procedures, and a host of other components that make it possible for operators of all nations to interact on the same global playing field were agreed upon by the US.
Most US residents don't even get out of their home state, let alone the country, so its hardly surprising that they are unable to adapt to the principle of global democracy, even in our line of work.
Last edited by deefer dog; 23rd Aug 2013 at 18:35.
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Instead of telling us you are the best
Now, I don't say that the US ATC is the best or better than any other country, but I've just never encountered any that were as good. With the possible exception of London Center, but even they they do not handle the amount of traffic of say New York City Tracon, which handles the traffic for JFK, LGA, SWF, EWR, ISP, HPH and TEB. Same with ORD, ATL, LAX, SFO, DFW, etc.
Of the top 15 busiest airports in the world, by amount of air traffic handled, the top six are US airports, eleven of the top 15 busiest airports are US, London comes in at 12th, after CDG and FRA.
So, why are you arguing against success? I know not of a single accident that can be blamed on the US ATC system involving a foreign carrier due to the language used by the US ATC Controllers. If I am incorrect, please enlighten me and I'll retract that statement.
I do however, know of a fatal UK registered Lear Jet accident in France that was due to ATC language issue.
Like a BA 747 captain posted here once when this subject was being discussed, it never fails to impress him that on his call from a US ATC controller, after radar contact is established coming in from London, is that he is cleared direct to arrival gate for LAX, on the other side of the US.
Like I said, it is hard to argue against success.
So, with that being written, unless someone can point out an accident involving a foreign carrier due to US ATC language, I am out of this thread, because all I've been seeing lately is sour grapes and jealousy, coupled with cheap shots at people that dare disagree with the British idea of 'we do it better than any other nation in the world'.
Now all of you have a nice day and if you hate flying in the US so much, bid different routes.
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Con Pilot,
Dear chap, anybody who states that the English do it better, or the Americans do it better, is talking nonsence. You cannot compare apples with oranges, but in any case none of that has anything whatsoever to do with the point of this thread! But I think you know that, don't you?
What you don't grasp is that ICAO is neither British or American. Why don't you do yourself a favour and google ICAO because in order to promote any argument on a professional board such as this it helps if you at least have a vague understanding of the subject matter.
The accident in Paris I presume you refer to was caused entirely as a result of one aircraft being cleared to "line up" into the path of another aircraft that had been "cleared to land" onto the same piece of concrete. Had the clearance to land been issued in English language, rather than French language, the English speaking crew would have realised the conflict. Yes there was a communications "issue" at play, and THAT old chap is the point of this thread that you can't, or refuse to accept! Probably because of the reasons stated in my earlier post of the day.
There is however one point you make that I entirely agree with. You should heed your own advise and get out of the thread. You are not equipped to forgo national pride, and appear not to have the intellect to put forward a valid and reasoned argument to support your theory that the US should do things their way.
Good bye.
that dare disagree with the British idea of 'we do it better than any other nation in the world'.
What you don't grasp is that ICAO is neither British or American. Why don't you do yourself a favour and google ICAO because in order to promote any argument on a professional board such as this it helps if you at least have a vague understanding of the subject matter.
I do however, know of a fatal UK registered Lear Jet accident in France that was due to ATC language issue.
There is however one point you make that I entirely agree with. You should heed your own advise and get out of the thread. You are not equipped to forgo national pride, and appear not to have the intellect to put forward a valid and reasoned argument to support your theory that the US should do things their way.
Good bye.
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Do threads unravel, or can they be put down while the tailor takes a breath, at least
Well, now. I hope someone posts what he really thinks. I really hope so.
I get that lots of posts have been read as urging a reductio ad absurdum as what someone else's post had been all about. Or even some posts which themselves took the Reductio airway to waypoint Ad Absurdum. It happens.
There were, I nonetheless think, some substantive comments. There were. I read them. Maybe a couple of weeks back. But I saw them. I think.
In fact I tried to post one or two of them. The substantive ones. I think I did, anyway.
International Civil Aviation Organization. One thing about this thread right now, the word Civil means government. If this thread were a dictionary that word would not mean "polite in ways large and small, especially used in processes, proceedings and places of significant social or societal import". Like the fine pilots of the world who get together on the internet to identify problems and work toward solutions. In my line of professional endeavor, we call it Civility. Sometimes lawyers act without civility. I used to. Sometimes I still do, I guess, but I try not to.
I'll risk what warm Guiness the Speedbirds want to throw in my face, or the stale and flat Molson urged upon my visage by my MapleLeaf neighbors, or the sour wine tossed in my eyes by the Francophones, or anyone else's idea of insult and opprobrium - even deprivation of a hamburger French fries and a Coke by my Yank countrymen -- for what I am about to say.
"Flight Everybody, this is the Vox ex ICAO. I have come to urge calm. If you want to contribute to the discussion here, don't. Go home, and start at the beginning of the thread, and read each and every post. Every one of them. Even ones you wrote. And be prepared when business opens next week (whenever that is in your part of the world) to post only in two-part harmony: identify a problem with particularity, as if you were testifying in front of a formal, on the record proceeding of your country's CAA. Articulate it with precision. And then propose a solution in practical terms."
Otherwise, let's all repair to the bar, pub, café, or other version of watering hole and, forget about the whole thing. No, I'm not buying. I'm a lawyer, remember? I already passed the bar.
I get that lots of posts have been read as urging a reductio ad absurdum as what someone else's post had been all about. Or even some posts which themselves took the Reductio airway to waypoint Ad Absurdum. It happens.
There were, I nonetheless think, some substantive comments. There were. I read them. Maybe a couple of weeks back. But I saw them. I think.
In fact I tried to post one or two of them. The substantive ones. I think I did, anyway.
International Civil Aviation Organization. One thing about this thread right now, the word Civil means government. If this thread were a dictionary that word would not mean "polite in ways large and small, especially used in processes, proceedings and places of significant social or societal import". Like the fine pilots of the world who get together on the internet to identify problems and work toward solutions. In my line of professional endeavor, we call it Civility. Sometimes lawyers act without civility. I used to. Sometimes I still do, I guess, but I try not to.
I'll risk what warm Guiness the Speedbirds want to throw in my face, or the stale and flat Molson urged upon my visage by my MapleLeaf neighbors, or the sour wine tossed in my eyes by the Francophones, or anyone else's idea of insult and opprobrium - even deprivation of a hamburger French fries and a Coke by my Yank countrymen -- for what I am about to say.
"Flight Everybody, this is the Vox ex ICAO. I have come to urge calm. If you want to contribute to the discussion here, don't. Go home, and start at the beginning of the thread, and read each and every post. Every one of them. Even ones you wrote. And be prepared when business opens next week (whenever that is in your part of the world) to post only in two-part harmony: identify a problem with particularity, as if you were testifying in front of a formal, on the record proceeding of your country's CAA. Articulate it with precision. And then propose a solution in practical terms."
Otherwise, let's all repair to the bar, pub, café, or other version of watering hole and, forget about the whole thing. No, I'm not buying. I'm a lawyer, remember? I already passed the bar.
Last edited by WillowRun 6-3; 23rd Aug 2013 at 20:33. Reason: plural form of countrymen. & check typo "tried" "Molson"
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@West Coast
Oh, no, this was not to advocate any such thing as what you referred to as Global Democracy. Not at all. CAAs are extensions of sovereign states. And the entire ICAO apparatus is based on nation-states a juridical entities reciprocally and universally, without regard to their individual forms of government.
Safety in civil aeronautics is just too important to let quaint notions of national pride stand in the path of a good, robust, no holds barred GroupThink about where things should go next, relative to the standardization, and the lack of standardization, in R/T. As is often slung about in cliché form, the truth is somewhere in the middle, as between the Cowboys and the ICAO Supremacists (my phrases, pile on if you like). Problem is, that middle is down the centerline of some other runway, not the one the mud-slingers are fighting over on recent posts. Safety in civil aeronautics is just too important for yours truly to avoid saying, Straighten Up and Fly Right, and let's discuss this like educated men and women, no crybabies, no matter whose flag you're wearing or tearing. That's all for now, ladies and gentlemen, if ladies and gentlemen you be.
Safety in civil aeronautics is just too important to let quaint notions of national pride stand in the path of a good, robust, no holds barred GroupThink about where things should go next, relative to the standardization, and the lack of standardization, in R/T. As is often slung about in cliché form, the truth is somewhere in the middle, as between the Cowboys and the ICAO Supremacists (my phrases, pile on if you like). Problem is, that middle is down the centerline of some other runway, not the one the mud-slingers are fighting over on recent posts. Safety in civil aeronautics is just too important for yours truly to avoid saying, Straighten Up and Fly Right, and let's discuss this like educated men and women, no crybabies, no matter whose flag you're wearing or tearing. That's all for now, ladies and gentlemen, if ladies and gentlemen you be.
Considering the size and scope of the US ATC system, who do you believe has a better ATC system?
Now, I don't say that the US ATC is the best or better than any other country, but I've just never encountered any that were as good. With the possible exception of London Center, but even they they do not handle the amount of traffic of say New York City Tracon, which handles the traffic for JFK, LGA, SWF, EWR, ISP, HPH and TEB. Same with ORD, ATL, LAX, SFO, DFW, etc.
Of the top 15 busiest airports in the world, by amount of air traffic handled, the top six are US airports, eleven of the top 15 busiest airports are US, London comes in at 12th, after CDG and FRA.
So, why are you arguing against success? I know not of a single accident that can be blamed on the US ATC system involving a foreign carrier due to the language used by the US ATC Controllers. If I am incorrect, please enlighten me and I'll retract that statement.
Now, I don't say that the US ATC is the best or better than any other country, but I've just never encountered any that were as good. With the possible exception of London Center, but even they they do not handle the amount of traffic of say New York City Tracon, which handles the traffic for JFK, LGA, SWF, EWR, ISP, HPH and TEB. Same with ORD, ATL, LAX, SFO, DFW, etc.
Of the top 15 busiest airports in the world, by amount of air traffic handled, the top six are US airports, eleven of the top 15 busiest airports are US, London comes in at 12th, after CDG and FRA.
So, why are you arguing against success? I know not of a single accident that can be blamed on the US ATC system involving a foreign carrier due to the language used by the US ATC Controllers. If I am incorrect, please enlighten me and I'll retract that statement.
Couldn't have put it better myself, base on 35 years of experience covering most of the places mentioned.
With the honourable exceptions of the Scandinavian, UK, Dutch and German ATC systems, most of Europe is pretty ordinary, and the dangers of conducting ATC communication with local carriers in the local language poses a par greater threat than minor differences in interpretations of ICAO SARPS on the matter of communication.
At home base, Australia, a byword for stilted and inflexible "radio procedures" (communications doesn't get a look in), all ICAO to the max, we have any number of incidents involving communications, including one collision between a DC-8 and B727 many years ago.
The US system works, and works just as well for foreign pilots, with only a minor "attitude adjustment" needed.
Tootle pip!!
Last edited by LeadSled; 24th Aug 2013 at 03:13.
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dangers of conducting ATC communication with local carriers in the local language poses a par greater threat than minor differences in interpretations of ICAO SARPS on the matter of communication.
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Standard vs local
I don't fly except as a passenger or a sunny Sunday PPLer but I have been in the industry for over twenty years as an engineer and manager in the organisations that screw together the hardware you guys fly. I wonder how you would feel if we in manufacturing became all chauvinistic about whose way of torquing bolts was best? Or maybe different ways of programming the FADEC or AP? Maybe the French CMM is better than the British for the Trent engines? The GE90 engines are serviced at Nantgarw in Wales but built in Durham NC and Cincinnati OH.
My point is, it doesn't matter where any of this happens geographically or culturally because there are standard methods developed by the TC holder's Design Authority that are applied universally. FAR145 keeps everything safe for us all and hardly anyone is unprofessional enough to ignore the regulations. Those that do, wind up in jail and out of the profession - usually following an incident.
We are trained to look over our own shoulder at work and imagine explaining the choices we make to a board of inquiry. If we follow the standard process and there is an incident, we examine the process. Once we deviate from the standard, we are personally accountable for every consequence that flows from that decision.
If we as an industry can manage it when we build aircraft, surely it follows for those that operate the aircraft. Regardless of what the eventual "standard" RT procedure looks like, we just follow it and continuously improve it? There is no room for iconoclasm or petty chauvinism in an inherently risky environment. I've listened to poor ATC all over the world whether it be a US ATCO who thinks "Pushing Tin" is a documentary and apes the stereotype represented or the bone headed Spanish jabbering ATCOs who will eventually cause an incident in their own airspace by reducing situational awareness for everybody else.
The idiot chauvinist who ignores the standard and the idiot pedant who refuses to acknowledge the possibility that the standard could (and should) be improved have one characteristic in common...stupidity.
My point is, it doesn't matter where any of this happens geographically or culturally because there are standard methods developed by the TC holder's Design Authority that are applied universally. FAR145 keeps everything safe for us all and hardly anyone is unprofessional enough to ignore the regulations. Those that do, wind up in jail and out of the profession - usually following an incident.
We are trained to look over our own shoulder at work and imagine explaining the choices we make to a board of inquiry. If we follow the standard process and there is an incident, we examine the process. Once we deviate from the standard, we are personally accountable for every consequence that flows from that decision.
If we as an industry can manage it when we build aircraft, surely it follows for those that operate the aircraft. Regardless of what the eventual "standard" RT procedure looks like, we just follow it and continuously improve it? There is no room for iconoclasm or petty chauvinism in an inherently risky environment. I've listened to poor ATC all over the world whether it be a US ATCO who thinks "Pushing Tin" is a documentary and apes the stereotype represented or the bone headed Spanish jabbering ATCOs who will eventually cause an incident in their own airspace by reducing situational awareness for everybody else.
The idiot chauvinist who ignores the standard and the idiot pedant who refuses to acknowledge the possibility that the standard could (and should) be improved have one characteristic in common...stupidity.
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Standard of R/T in Europe
Why is it that there is a total lack of courtesy and etiquette in European airspace?
I have been irritated by this for some time, but after seeing my fellow Europeans gang up on US R/T standards I think it is time to take a hard look at ourselves.
Why is it that no one can listen for a second before transmitting? There is no reason to cut others off mid sentence, nor is there justification for jumping into a conversation mid-stream.
While we may use standard phraseology, it is a much less effective way to communicate than what the Yanks use. I think that if everyone was at least a Level 4 ICAO English speaker the European system would work better.
As Europeans we think we are better than Americans, but it might be time to see that things are occasionally done better over there.
Just for the record English is my third language. A lot of time and effort was expended to learn it properly since it is the language of my profession.
I have been irritated by this for some time, but after seeing my fellow Europeans gang up on US R/T standards I think it is time to take a hard look at ourselves.
Why is it that no one can listen for a second before transmitting? There is no reason to cut others off mid sentence, nor is there justification for jumping into a conversation mid-stream.
While we may use standard phraseology, it is a much less effective way to communicate than what the Yanks use. I think that if everyone was at least a Level 4 ICAO English speaker the European system would work better.
As Europeans we think we are better than Americans, but it might be time to see that things are occasionally done better over there.
Just for the record English is my third language. A lot of time and effort was expended to learn it properly since it is the language of my profession.
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As Europeans we think we are better than Americans
There's a high enough temperature in these threads without adding to the fire!
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High enough temperature
That is not my intent, but it needs to be said. Almost all think it, I just put it down in writing.
Better now?
Better now?
Last edited by DA50driver; 25th Aug 2013 at 13:31.
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"Request FLxxx if available": Well if it is not available you won't get it. There are a lot of examples of what I call filler words uselessly congesting the frequency. Another one is "Understand" prior to repeating read back. This one seems to have been imported from across the Atlantic.
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I'm English and cannot speak for other EU countries because I have never experienced them from an aviation viewpoint. Also, it's 11 years since I retired and my ex-colleagues keep telling me that everything has changed beyond recognition. However, during my 30+ years in English ATC I cannot recall too many incidents of bad R/T either by ATC or pilots.
Back in the 70s the east european and one or two southern european crews did not speak much english but they got by. Russian aircraft, e.g. TU-104, had very poor radios not helped by (I think) throat mics. By the time I left everything seemed A-OK. In all my ATC time, including time abroad, I found US pilots exceedingly good to work with and the USAF beat everyone else hands down. But that's just my personal opinion.
Back in the 70s the east european and one or two southern european crews did not speak much english but they got by. Russian aircraft, e.g. TU-104, had very poor radios not helped by (I think) throat mics. By the time I left everything seemed A-OK. In all my ATC time, including time abroad, I found US pilots exceedingly good to work with and the USAF beat everyone else hands down. But that's just my personal opinion.