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Asiana flight crash at San Francisco

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Asiana flight crash at San Francisco

Old 9th Jul 2013, 18:48
  #1201 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MikeNYC
Those that drive big jets once drove smaller planes earlier in their career. No pilot's first plane ever is a 777. When one starts training and earns a PPL, one has no choice of what approach to make...it's always a visual.
actually pilots from asia very frequently progress from company owned c172's to whatever twin and then immediately into big jets all in the space of 6-12 months. east asian airlines have some very different ideas when it comes to training progression IMO. a lot of these pilots have comparatively little stick and rudder flying experience.
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 19:02
  #1202 (permalink)  
 
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Might be a bit tricky flying a visual approach with 10deg nose-up body angle. If they couldn't see the runway it's no wonder they nearly missed it.
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 19:11
  #1203 (permalink)  
 
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Eaglewit http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5...ml#post7931616

I do not understand why people would even fault the airport for not having the ILS fully functioning.

A pilot should be able to fly without it. Shouldn't we expect a professional pilot to be able to safely land his aircraft if THE AIRCRAFT'S NAVIGATION SYSTEM IS DOWN.

Do these guys train in the SIM for a raw data single engine hand flown approach? If the airplane is capable of doing it, then the pilot flying it ought to be capable of doing it.
Had the ILS GS been in service this crash would not have happened. I am sure you could land asymmetric on limited panel - so why to we need two engines for and full instruments?

There has been a lot of 'grandstanding' here on the capabilities of pilots to land with no aids. Whether you like it or not aids are used by many air carriers as the normal approach. Remove or limit their availability and you have taken away a layer of cheese.

In London Centre today they had a failure of the Conflict Alert system. Controllers should all be able to control and separate traffic without automation support.... but severe flow control was imposed due to the lack of a layer of cheese.

Whether you like it or not - that layer of cheese would have prevented this accident. Yes the pilot should be able to fly a VFR approach with no aids. But the airlines (that _you_ work for) do not allow for that. How many training flights without SLF have you done for VFR approaches?

I would expect one of the outcomes of this inquiry will be ILS should not have been OTS for so long.

Last edited by Ian W; 9th Jul 2013 at 19:12.
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 19:13
  #1204 (permalink)  
 
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Worth a read!

Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB) report number AO-2011-086
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 19:13
  #1205 (permalink)  
 
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From the data we have available looks like they were unstable on the approach and trying to recover they end up, with the thrust idle, to stall before the touchdown. Of course this is just my opinion but the question could be the following: If they were trying to recover the unstable approach, it means they knew they were unstable, if they knew, why do not perform a go around???
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 19:18
  #1206 (permalink)  
 
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The Approach

Apologies if this has been mentioned already;

From the flights ground track it appears that they were cleared for the TIPTOE Visual to runway 28L. This charted Visual procedure is slightly unusual in some ways, and includes some holes that the uninitiated may fall into; Especially after an eleven hour flight landing at a 3:30 AM circadian time.

1. Vertical guidance is only charted at two minimum altitudes. The last of which is published due to Class B airspace. This altitude leaves you high with regard to a 3 degree glide path.

2. With the GS out of service there is no Vertical guidance associated with the approach, apart from the PAPIs.

3. In some FMS databases the TIPTOE Visual must be 'built' in the FMS.

4. The approach can be flown accurately using a combination of LVAV/VNAV followed by IAN. This method allows both vertical and lateral guidance. It also requires familiarity and or training.

It doesn't appear from the vertical track posted that the crew were following IAN or the PAPI.

Here's a link to the Charted Visual approach: http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1307/00...TOE_VIS28L.PDF
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 19:25
  #1207 (permalink)  
 
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What is the special difficulty about that visual approach?
Speed on short final was the problem looks like, what has it to do with the VAP?
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 19:27
  #1208 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ian W
Had the ILS GS been in service this crash would not have happened. I am sure you could land asymmetric on limited panel - so why to we need two engines for and full instruments?

There has been a lot of 'grandstanding' here on the capabilities of pilots to land with no aids. Whether you like it or not aids are used by many air carriers as the normal approach. Remove or limit their availability and you have taken away a layer of cheese.

Whether you like it or not - that layer of cheese would have prevented this accident. Yes the pilot should be able to fly a VFR approach with no aids. But the airlines (that _you_ work for) do not allow for that. How many training flights without SLF have you done for VFR approaches?
The ILS being U/S was not a surprise...it was NOTAMed and it's been out of service for some time. That should have been part of the crew's briefing. Non-availability of a NAVAID isn't a layer of cheese when it's not a surprise.

If the airlines don't allow an approach without NAVAIDs, the crew shouldn't have accepted a visual.

Last edited by MikeNYC; 9th Jul 2013 at 19:27.
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 19:32
  #1209 (permalink)  
 
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JPJP

2. With the GS out of service there is no Vertical guidance associated with the approach, apart from the PAPIs.
From what distance is PAPI clearly visible at that time of day, and when coming in on that touted 14 (or 17?) mile long final?

(Me too was wondering if one of those pre-prepared, charted visuals had been called for, but maybe so far no info?)
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 19:33
  #1210 (permalink)  
 
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Of course its a 'layer of cheese' just because something is briefed doesn't prevent it from being a threat. Anything that is non standard is a treat, this day and age a visual approach isn't a standard approach. I am not saying that they shouldn't be able to do it just that it i not the norm and is a threat. Especially so if your tired, and in training.

Last edited by felixthecat; 9th Jul 2013 at 19:36.
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 19:34
  #1211 (permalink)  
 
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"Whether you like it or not - that layer of cheese would have prevented this accident"

You have now placed yourself in the same league as the aviation experts on TV that had figured out the cause before the flames were out. Making a declarative statement like that minus all the facts allows one conclusion, and it's not about the crash.
Amazing every large aircraft that lands RWY 27 at KSAN doesn't crash as well seeing as there's no GS on that runway either. KORD 14R is minus a GS as well, haven't read of anyone crashing there as well due to it.

If my small jet has the capability to build a course and slope to a runway (via the FMS) I have to believe the 777 does as well. There are ways to mitigate the threat presented by an inop ILS.
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 19:35
  #1212 (permalink)  
 
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Question: Is there an audible signal in 777 when speed departs (say by a few kts) from Vref (provided the bug was set)? Hope some Boeing pilot chimes in since there are questions about it on another forum.

Last edited by olasek; 9th Jul 2013 at 19:36.
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 19:36
  #1213 (permalink)  
 
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No no aural for speed deviations. Why the PNF didn't call it is another matter…..or even if it was called why it wasn't acted upon. At the moment we don't know either way just that they were slow.

The 'bug' is set via the FMC via entering the weight into the FMC and selecting the approach flap. It is also an item on the decent checklist.

Last edited by felixthecat; 9th Jul 2013 at 19:40.
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 19:37
  #1214 (permalink)  
 
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Many if's regarding visual approach...

Just wondering in this particular case when GS is out, the Crew did not built VNAV 3 degrees path to aid. Some airports I operate 777, this is quite handy for referense. But, just following this case with great interest, what is going to be official report.
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 19:42
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When the airspeed drops to top of yellow band, or lower, an aural "airspeed low" warning is generated. At least in our fleet.
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 19:44
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Interesting…not on ours…
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 19:48
  #1217 (permalink)  
 
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fish slide deployment

why did the slides deploy inside the a/p
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 19:49
  #1218 (permalink)  
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Question re AOA indication on 777

I've seen two versions of an answer

one version says NO AOA indication

another says AOA not needed ( inferring no such indication ?? )

So which is correct ?

Is there or is there NOT an AOA indication on 777 either measured or computer derived ?
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 19:51
  #1219 (permalink)  
 
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Ifs and buts about visual approach maybe, but they were 650ft from the threshold, and 0.25nm from touchdown zone, I think a low hour PPL student would pick that up!
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 19:53
  #1220 (permalink)  
 
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I don't think this has been posted here before..

Stories of bravery emerge from Asiana Airlines crash | World news | guardian.co.uk

Aircraft crew and emergency first responders have revealed they used knives, an axe and sheer muscle to free people trapped in the burning Boeing 777 that crashed at San Francisco airport.

The dramatic accounts on Monday helped to explain how 305 of the 307 people on board Asiana Airlines flight 214 survived when it smashed on to the runway on Saturday.

As smoke and fire engulfed the wreck pilots and attendants used knives to slice off seatbelts that tangled passengers. At least one knife came from in-flight cutlery; others were lobbed in by police officers on the runway.

A pilot used a cockpit "crash axe" to deflate an evacuation slide that had inflated inwards, pinning a colleague. Another pilot carried a wounded passenger to safety as jet fuel spurted.....

...snip....

The fire crew were astonished to discover a police officer, Jim Cunningham, inside the plane helping the evacuation without protective gear. He and a colleague had been among the first at the scene. After throwing knives to crew members aboard he went in himself. "I didn't think about it. I just knew people were trapped in there. I just thought, 'I'm kind of a tough guy, I can hold my breath if there's a lot of smoke,'" Cunningham said.
If I remember correctly 47 people have serious injuries which I think usually means broken limbs or worse, so I'm not surprised some people didn't run very far after they went down the slides.

Last edited by cwatters; 9th Jul 2013 at 19:57.
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