British & Dutch Plane Spotters sentenced
Join Date: May 2000
Location: UK
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Surely they would only be expected to be punished if they were actually guilty of espionage, which they clearly are not. Of course one should respect local laws and customs when in another country, the issue here is whether they collected information to pass on to someone else, presumably the Turks. It must be obvious they were not collecting numbers for this purpose, and the stuff they had must have been in the public domain for years.
I'm all in favour of punishing people that flout laws in foreign countries because they would legal at home, but that does not appear to be the case here.
I'm all in favour of punishing people that flout laws in foreign countries because they would legal at home, but that does not appear to be the case here.
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Squeaker your post seems to be xenophobic. Just because its not against the law here dosen't mean it shouldn't be against the law in Greece. It up to Greece to make the own laws, and i dont think this law make the Greeks into some sort of Barbarians.
These people knew the score before they went there and sailed to close to the wind and got caught. When i fly to certain place i have to fill in forms to comply with the prevension of terrorism act. If i don't i would be breaking the law, an liable to what that entails, but it wouldn't mean I am a terrorist.
These people knew the score before they went there and sailed to close to the wind and got caught. When i fly to certain place i have to fill in forms to comply with the prevension of terrorism act. If i don't i would be breaking the law, an liable to what that entails, but it wouldn't mean I am a terrorist.
More than just an ATCO
Join Date: Jul 1999
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The biggest crime they committed was one of stupidity in believing that they would enjoy the same freedom there as they do in the U.K. These guys paid a considerable sum to pursue their hobby and often have an inflated opinion of their own worth
Many places in the "civilised" world still have restrictions on photography. I can remember signs at EGGW saying that it was forbidden to photograph aircraft. I think it is still forbidden in, e.g. the Netherlands, to make aerial photos without a licence.
Greece may be part of NATO but relations with Turkey are. to put it mildly, strained, making them almost paranoid about security and, as in most countries, the first contact they will make will be with MPs who are not known for intelligence and sensitivity. It was only neccesary for one person to take a photo after a request is made to stop or make a silly comment and as my old man used to say, "Yer feet won't touch."
Once a decision has been made the entire military machine will close ranks behind them and the whole affair takes on a life of its own. If you think face is important to orientals you don't know much about the military mindset.
Back in the 70's an Irish Controller working at Maastricht spent 6 months in a Belgian Jail for telling the MPs to "Fark off" when instructed to stop photographing. His defence was that he was outside the airfield, however the fence was built about 3m. inside the boundary; he could have been out in a couple of hours but refused to grovel and insisted on his "Rights".
If you think something like this couldn't happen in the U.K. I suggest you go find a manned police speed trap, drive through it at double the limit, giving the police the finger and when finally stopped be exceedingly rude. By the time they finish you won't even have a dog licence.
Many places in the "civilised" world still have restrictions on photography. I can remember signs at EGGW saying that it was forbidden to photograph aircraft. I think it is still forbidden in, e.g. the Netherlands, to make aerial photos without a licence.
Greece may be part of NATO but relations with Turkey are. to put it mildly, strained, making them almost paranoid about security and, as in most countries, the first contact they will make will be with MPs who are not known for intelligence and sensitivity. It was only neccesary for one person to take a photo after a request is made to stop or make a silly comment and as my old man used to say, "Yer feet won't touch."
Once a decision has been made the entire military machine will close ranks behind them and the whole affair takes on a life of its own. If you think face is important to orientals you don't know much about the military mindset.
Back in the 70's an Irish Controller working at Maastricht spent 6 months in a Belgian Jail for telling the MPs to "Fark off" when instructed to stop photographing. His defence was that he was outside the airfield, however the fence was built about 3m. inside the boundary; he could have been out in a couple of hours but refused to grovel and insisted on his "Rights".
If you think something like this couldn't happen in the U.K. I suggest you go find a manned police speed trap, drive through it at double the limit, giving the police the finger and when finally stopped be exceedingly rude. By the time they finish you won't even have a dog licence.
Join Date: Nov 2001
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why cant they be like us?
quote:
"I will never understand the mind of a spotter, but it does seem strange why people want to write down the reg numbers, movement times, pilots name etc of flights "
why cant they have interests like us ....
Quote:
"Interests: sex , aviation, fast cars, sex, booze, sex and did I mention sex?"
I hasten to add, not the same pprune member!
"I will never understand the mind of a spotter, but it does seem strange why people want to write down the reg numbers, movement times, pilots name etc of flights "
why cant they have interests like us ....
Quote:
"Interests: sex , aviation, fast cars, sex, booze, sex and did I mention sex?"
I hasten to add, not the same pprune member!
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: United Kingdom
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Bottom line is that these guys had an official Air Force letter of accreditation inviting them to the show. The Greeks knew the reason for the chaps visit. These Greeks are are bunch of sloping shoulders nothings who when push came to crunch didnt even have the conviction to make there guilty verdict stand, but declare the verdicts suspended. Interpreters on 15 euros a day?
I trust when the Greek Air force send a jet to RIAT this summer they will be bringing a tent to keep it in!
With respect to a previous statement on prohibited photography over nations listed in ops manuals, I have never seen cabin crew attempt to stop any pax air to ground piccy taking during any stage of flight. I bet they are oblivious to the facts.
I trust when the Greek Air force send a jet to RIAT this summer they will be bringing a tent to keep it in!
With respect to a previous statement on prohibited photography over nations listed in ops manuals, I have never seen cabin crew attempt to stop any pax air to ground piccy taking during any stage of flight. I bet they are oblivious to the facts.
More than just an ATCO
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Hobie
Koi carp says it all,
rollandpull I bet they are oblivious to the facts
Ignorance of the law is no excuse. Just because a law is not enforced does not mean that it has been deleted
Koi carp says it all,
rollandpull I bet they are oblivious to the facts
Ignorance of the law is no excuse. Just because a law is not enforced does not mean that it has been deleted
Eight Gun Fighter
Join Date: Apr 2000
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This is not justice or reality.
Does anyone think the Turks don't know what and where every last piece of the Greek Airforce is at anytime? Do they actually need to enlist anoraks from the UK or the Netherlands to fill them in with information from an airshow? Give me a break.
Join Date: Jul 1999
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Spotters
Hey you guys!
If the likes of "Mishandled" et all were real pilots, or even airline staff, they might realise that "spotters" are actually human beings with a common interest in aviation. They are, effectively, supporters of aviation and the complete opposite to NIMBY's and other groups who try to oppose the movements of GA and commercial aircraft.
Time we showed some solidarity with people who are on our side.
'Nuff said.
Respect to you all.
ETR
If the likes of "Mishandled" et all were real pilots, or even airline staff, they might realise that "spotters" are actually human beings with a common interest in aviation. They are, effectively, supporters of aviation and the complete opposite to NIMBY's and other groups who try to oppose the movements of GA and commercial aircraft.
Time we showed some solidarity with people who are on our side.
'Nuff said.
Respect to you all.
ETR
Join Date: May 2001
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Back in the 70's an Irish Controller working at Maastricht spent 6 months in a Belgian Jail for telling the MPs to "Fark off" when instructed to stop photographing....he could have been out in a couple of hours but refused to grovel and insisted on his "Rights".
The Irish are especially familiar with its shortcomings.
Funny how you Brits get so upset when the tables are turned on you.
Welcome to the brutal truth. There is no right above the right of a sovereign state to treat bothersome foreigners as it so wishes.
Join Date: Sep 2001
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Regardless of the pros and cons, in never fails; in Greece, someone always gets it in the end.
(In remembrance of the Swissair crew at Athens, b*ngholed by airport incompetence at Athens).
(In remembrance of the Swissair crew at Athens, b*ngholed by airport incompetence at Athens).
Join Date: Apr 2002
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Plane Spotters
I hope maxalt is joking with the reference to 'good old British justice'. Surely even a Ryan driver can see the difference between a travesty of natural justice about the right to wear an anorak of one's own choosing, and a small domestic spat in N.Ireland that no one's really interested in.
Join Date: Aug 2000
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"Small domestic spat in N. Ireland." Tell that to the grieving families of thousands of Irish and British people that have died in your so called little 'Spat' since 1969. Yotter, get off the stage, you are only making yourself look foolish.
Join Date: Jul 2000
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Lon More
Youre drift doesn't compute on my CRP-5.
So what are you saying is that by CC not knowing 'the law' and not knowing how to enforce 'the law' that they dont know about, they (CC) are failing in their duty as professional aviators by being ignorant of 'the law'. Do you work for Olympic?
So what are you saying is that by CC not knowing 'the law' and not knowing how to enforce 'the law' that they dont know about, they (CC) are failing in their duty as professional aviators by being ignorant of 'the law'. Do you work for Olympic?
Join Date: Apr 2002
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Oh Tom. of course the Irish troubles are tragic and much more important than a bunch of anorak plane spotters - that is the whole point of my sarcasm. It was your Irish mate who started this sideline by having a sly dig at the Brits. If you don't like aviation type joshing and general p*** taking - hard luck and sorry if you missed the point. Try reading my message again.
More than just an ATCO
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Maxalt
Good old (British) justice and fair play
Obviously up ther somewhere with the Irish standard of education.
If you could read you might have noticed it occured in Belgium. The guy concerned, a good friend of mine, is now working in the U.K. as a controller.
Had you read my previous posts properly you might have concluded that I had very little sympathy with the lot of those concerned.
rollandpull
The captain is responsible for the actions of his crew.
As this information is published in the relevant AIP it could be argued that by not informing the crew his preflight preparation and briefing is inadequate so I repeat, ignorance of the law is no excuse.
In practice the law is no longer enforced
No I don't work for Olympic
Edited for spelling mistakes on French keyboard
Good old (British) justice and fair play
Obviously up ther somewhere with the Irish standard of education.
If you could read you might have noticed it occured in Belgium. The guy concerned, a good friend of mine, is now working in the U.K. as a controller.
Had you read my previous posts properly you might have concluded that I had very little sympathy with the lot of those concerned.
rollandpull
The captain is responsible for the actions of his crew.
As this information is published in the relevant AIP it could be argued that by not informing the crew his preflight preparation and briefing is inadequate so I repeat, ignorance of the law is no excuse.
In practice the law is no longer enforced
No I don't work for Olympic
Edited for spelling mistakes on French keyboard
Last edited by Lon More; 27th Apr 2002 at 14:08.
Join Date: Oct 2001
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Greece are supposed to be in the EU, and with all the european lark they should act accordingly, Yes these guys were wrong, but I think within the EU it should have been a ticking off etc etc, go home.
Now what I cannot understand is how Greece is so convinced that there technology is so advanced that it has to be protected, very strange. I get the impression they are becoming similar to the african 3rd world countries who are convinced that because they have 2 guns and a helicopter they can take on the world, they then argue that because a british person has seen the weapons that he is spying, and don't understand when you explain that you can buy the same stuff in europe 'fairly easily', its a very strange scenario.
Now what I cannot understand is how Greece is so convinced that there technology is so advanced that it has to be protected, very strange. I get the impression they are becoming similar to the african 3rd world countries who are convinced that because they have 2 guns and a helicopter they can take on the world, they then argue that because a british person has seen the weapons that he is spying, and don't understand when you explain that you can buy the same stuff in europe 'fairly easily', its a very strange scenario.
Join Date: Apr 2000
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I seem to recall Trainspotters having similar problems in China whilst taking piccies of steam trains. The difference is that in Totalitarian China they saw sense and quietly released them with a rap on the knuckles.
I expect this will end up in the European Court along with Asda and the right to slice your Ham where you please.
I expect this will end up in the European Court along with Asda and the right to slice your Ham where you please.