SAS diversion accompanied by Typhoon
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Suppose the PIA incidemt was an over-reaction too! anything to keep the hours up! Bah.
Its time this thread was given the old red button treatment - intercepted and (in this case) shot down
Last edited by E_S_P; 24th May 2013 at 19:51.
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ESP :
sorry for late response. Was away in the real world for a while. Unfortunately back in front of a laptop tonight..
Got your point about " once the decision is made" and understand it. Mine is that I find it a pity that in some Sates (and the UK seems to be one ) you cannot modify that decision once you get confirmation that the cause of the doubt that led to take that decision is no longer there.
Canadian Break :
quote :
I think I have met people like you in a former life. You see I was slightly involved in the aftermath of KAL007. We all have learned a lot after that and even the USA said they would apply the ICAO changes proposed after that. But then IR655 happened. Military will always be military.
I hope that the decision process to shoot down a civil airliner full of pax will take a bit longer today, and involve more civilians and politicians in the process, also in the UK.
End of my ramblings.
sorry for late response. Was away in the real world for a while. Unfortunately back in front of a laptop tonight..
Got your point about " once the decision is made" and understand it. Mine is that I find it a pity that in some Sates (and the UK seems to be one ) you cannot modify that decision once you get confirmation that the cause of the doubt that led to take that decision is no longer there.
Canadian Break :
quote :
I reckon that the system employed by the UK is about the most failsafe in the world; if not I wouldn't have had anything to do with it!
I hope that the decision process to shoot down a civil airliner full of pax will take a bit longer today, and involve more civilians and politicians in the process, also in the UK.
End of my ramblings.
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ATC Watcher
If only you know how that decision was arrived at - and perhaps others such as myself who have contributed to this thread have also had similar experiences to yours - but the outcomes were different to KAL 007.
More than just an ATCO
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Would it take much extra wok to incorporate UIR/FIR boundaries in the FD display, possibly accompanied by a warning chime as this is crossed? All it takes then is one call to ATC, "Do you want us to remain on this frequency?"
Personal opinion; once an aircraft is intercepted I feel it should then continue to the designated airport. Thee is gong to come time when it is a genuine incident and the person advising Ops Normal is in fact the hijacker.
Personal opinion; once an aircraft is intercepted I feel it should then continue to the designated airport. Thee is gong to come time when it is a genuine incident and the person advising Ops Normal is in fact the hijacker.
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Lon More
Good man - someone who clearly uses his grey cells to ask that immortal question..."what if?" One of many reasons for "pushing on" once the decision to go has been made.
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In the recent past, every Saturday (or Sunday if we are busy on Saturday), I began spending time with my two small children, running drills to practice emergency calls. They would sit playing and I would then shout some emergency scenario at them, for example 'the neighbour's house is on fire'. The children would then agree which one would call the emergency services. He/she would dial 999/911/112 and ask 'say practice! fire practice fire! practice fire!'. They would then give the name and address and any other info they deemed useful.
To test the children's understanding of what was an emergency and what wasn't, the nature of the scenario would change. But each time they would play out the scenario right to the end before any analysis and feedback was offered. The advantage of this approach is that the emergency services can offer immediate feedback.
So, for example, when I shouted that Granny's teeth had fallen down the toilet and the children decided to dial 999/911/112, I sat proudly and watched them learn from an angry operator that this was not, in fact, a real emergency.
With the advent of twitter I was able to dream up more radical scenarios, such as the recent train derailment & explosion in the states, which thankfully the children correctly identified as an emergency and called 999/911/112. It wasn't their fault the foreign operator didn't recognise the word 'practice' and thus we should have a good case in court against the railway operator's claim for damages.
Equally it is hardly our fault that one of our training calls cased a delay in processing another emergency call. They should have more lines in use and I am sure the Judge will understand that sometimes the kids forget the word 'practice'.
This week we had even better training when the authorities called to our home to query our regular 'practice' calls. I decided that in the event of a war or other emergency it would be advantageous to have my middle-eastern born spouse practice talking the blame for some elaborate hoax. This would give them useful experience of incarceration in a western country and, importantly, the family good experience of a more spartan existence.
This practice call on the emergency number is a truly wonderful facility and everyone should do it every day. No one seems to mind and of course there is simply no other possible way to teach children how to do a 999/911/112 call.
* NB the above may not be completely true and may lean toward satire.
To test the children's understanding of what was an emergency and what wasn't, the nature of the scenario would change. But each time they would play out the scenario right to the end before any analysis and feedback was offered. The advantage of this approach is that the emergency services can offer immediate feedback.
So, for example, when I shouted that Granny's teeth had fallen down the toilet and the children decided to dial 999/911/112, I sat proudly and watched them learn from an angry operator that this was not, in fact, a real emergency.
With the advent of twitter I was able to dream up more radical scenarios, such as the recent train derailment & explosion in the states, which thankfully the children correctly identified as an emergency and called 999/911/112. It wasn't their fault the foreign operator didn't recognise the word 'practice' and thus we should have a good case in court against the railway operator's claim for damages.
Equally it is hardly our fault that one of our training calls cased a delay in processing another emergency call. They should have more lines in use and I am sure the Judge will understand that sometimes the kids forget the word 'practice'.
This week we had even better training when the authorities called to our home to query our regular 'practice' calls. I decided that in the event of a war or other emergency it would be advantageous to have my middle-eastern born spouse practice talking the blame for some elaborate hoax. This would give them useful experience of incarceration in a western country and, importantly, the family good experience of a more spartan existence.
This practice call on the emergency number is a truly wonderful facility and everyone should do it every day. No one seems to mind and of course there is simply no other possible way to teach children how to do a 999/911/112 call.
* NB the above may not be completely true and may lean toward satire.
Last edited by missterrible; 30th May 2013 at 14:43.
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missterrible. I hope it isn't true or maybe where you are the emergency operators have little to do. Can you even begin to imagine the carnage if everyone in the UK dialled 999 for practice? The emergency services here are grossly overloaded as it it and you would not believe the calls which are made to 999..
Last edited by HEATHROW DIRECTOR; 30th May 2013 at 13:17.
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missterrible
I guess you are a member of the Guard Police; and you are alluding to the use of Practice Pans in UK airspace by trainee pilots?
Not really the topic of this thread and has been done to death!
I guess you are a member of the Guard Police; and you are alluding to the use of Practice Pans in UK airspace by trainee pilots?
Not really the topic of this thread and has been done to death!
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But he makes a valid point.
If mum and dad were unconscious in the lounge the kids would know it might be carbon monoxide poisoning and phone the medics.
Over decades many pilots have died because they got in to difficulty and were too embarrassed to make a pan or mayday call.
The 'guard police' are a bunch of numptys
If mum and dad were unconscious in the lounge the kids would know it might be carbon monoxide poisoning and phone the medics.
Over decades many pilots have died because they got in to difficulty and were too embarrassed to make a pan or mayday call.
The 'guard police' are a bunch of numptys
Last edited by Ye Olde Pilot; 2nd Jun 2013 at 21:15.
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Valid point, yes... Why not start a thread about it!
I've taken the highly unusual step, for pprune, of actually finding some facts on the subject. With respect to what was for me the major issue, that once a fighter was launched it continued to intercept and force a diversion even if comms were restored. I have discovered that, contrary to some of the headmasterial posts here, that isn't the case and in at least one instance a Typhoon held over Northolt without intercepting after a Glasgow bound B757 which had lost contact at the French FIR had come back on air. Perhaps those who posted to the contrary weren't aware of this or felt, incorrectly, the info was classified?
I also discovered that the Frogs carry out very many more interceptions than the UK...suggesting that the "self justification" issue is very much alive but in pointing the finger at the UK authorities we've got the wrong target.
I've taken the highly unusual step, for pprune, of actually finding some facts on the subject. With respect to what was for me the major issue, that once a fighter was launched it continued to intercept and force a diversion even if comms were restored. I have discovered that, contrary to some of the headmasterial posts here, that isn't the case and in at least one instance a Typhoon held over Northolt without intercepting after a Glasgow bound B757 which had lost contact at the French FIR had come back on air. Perhaps those who posted to the contrary weren't aware of this or felt, incorrectly, the info was classified?
I also discovered that the Frogs carry out very many more interceptions than the UK...suggesting that the "self justification" issue is very much alive but in pointing the finger at the UK authorities we've got the wrong target.
I call you back
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Now ShotOne, having got that far in your research, why didn't you ask why there are so many interceptions in French airspace?
Here are some suggestions:
ATC don't read full frequencies (e.g. 132.57 instead of 132.570 or 132.575 etc.) and often fail to check the readback to compound this;
Pilots who think it is funny to block 121.5 with idiotic broadcasts of animals and music thus, as in the UK, many pilots turn down/off 121.5 due to the distraction;
Here are some suggestions:
ATC don't read full frequencies (e.g. 132.57 instead of 132.570 or 132.575 etc.) and often fail to check the readback to compound this;
Pilots who think it is funny to block 121.5 with idiotic broadcasts of animals and music thus, as in the UK, many pilots turn down/off 121.5 due to the distraction;
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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The main reason USED to be that they needed passive targets for their interceptor force and often 'intercepted' innocent civil aircraft in full radio contact with ATC.
ATC don't read full frequencies (e.g. 132.57 instead of 132.570 or 132.575 etc.) and often fail to check the readback to compound this;
Pilots who think it is funny to block 121.5 with idiotic broadcasts of animals and music thus, as in the UK, many pilots turn down/off 121.5 due to the distraction;
Pilots who think it is funny to block 121.5 with idiotic broadcasts of animals and music thus, as in the UK, many pilots turn down/off 121.5 due to the distraction;
(transmitted as 0ne Two One Decimal Five)
