SAS diversion accompanied by Typhoon
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ATC Watcher
I was trying to say, (and perhaps it didn't come through in my last post well by using an analogy), that there is a sequence of events - not just losing comms failure which initiates this type of response, again as Canadian Break has stated.
Its nothing to do with James Bond, but is to do with what happens once the "button" is pressed. Once the decision to intercept is made, it will - as in this case, run to its pre-planned conclusion.
Its nothing to do with James Bond, but is to do with what happens once the "button" is pressed. Once the decision to intercept is made, it will - as in this case, run to its pre-planned conclusion.
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There are none so blind
There are none so blind as those who will not see. The most deluded people are those who choose to ignore what they already know.
Just a numbered other
Flying CPH to EDI in my days on the Fokker 100 with British Midland, it was quite common to lose comms near the FIR boundary.
I used to make sure I had the next freq before the problem could arise.
One wonders just how long some pilots will continue without the old 'sixpence - half a crown' feeling prompting a radio check.
I used to make sure I had the next freq before the problem could arise.
One wonders just how long some pilots will continue without the old 'sixpence - half a crown' feeling prompting a radio check.
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Arkroyal
I can tell you that my friend; worst case in my personal experience was from coasting out over France until starting the descent into Manchester! Took him a while to realise that he had an escort too. Maybe they were both asleep!?
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"maybe they were asleep...?" or maybe they were handed over to a wrong frequency and retained there, or not transferred at all or suffered a comms failure, but hey in the absence of evidence let's just assume whatever makes them look worst!
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Shot One
So, if they were handed the wrong freq what is the SOP - sit there fat, dumb and happy in some of the busiest airspace in the world? Neither were they listening on 121.5 - or their company freq - or any of the previous freqs they had used. So, you tell me what should have happened!
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I'm not saying they did everything right, Canadian, but your "asleep" comment is revealing of your attitude and also highlights that the airline and crew invariably carry the can regardless of who or what was at fault.
Perhaps you would explain how your "at least fifteen inputs" totted up in this instance since, on the face of it, there was no factor other than a loss of contact. Surely the fact that they had flown past London on planned route without deviation ought to have counted as fairly strong evidence of an innocent explanation?
Clearly you have taken this personally and feel you are being accused of pushing the button "for the hell of it". I assure you this isn't the case but I feel strongly that the decision making protocol needs examination and discussion, particularly since ours is copied elsewhere. How would you feel as a passenger on an Azerbajan airliner intercepted by, say, a Zimbabwean fighter pilot on a dark bumpy night? This presumption of hostility is likely to have lethal consequences somewhere before too long.
Perhaps you would explain how your "at least fifteen inputs" totted up in this instance since, on the face of it, there was no factor other than a loss of contact. Surely the fact that they had flown past London on planned route without deviation ought to have counted as fairly strong evidence of an innocent explanation?
Clearly you have taken this personally and feel you are being accused of pushing the button "for the hell of it". I assure you this isn't the case but I feel strongly that the decision making protocol needs examination and discussion, particularly since ours is copied elsewhere. How would you feel as a passenger on an Azerbajan airliner intercepted by, say, a Zimbabwean fighter pilot on a dark bumpy night? This presumption of hostility is likely to have lethal consequences somewhere before too long.
Last edited by ShotOne; 23rd May 2013 at 16:21. Reason: More info
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Shot
This is not really the Forum to discuss this any further. Suffice to say, the protocols are in place and I reckon that the system employed by the UK is about the most failsafe in the world; if not I wouldn't have had anything to do with it! Happy Landings. CB
CB:
I admire your patience.
Sadly, when it comes to trying to have a reasonable discourse with some of the posters on pprune you are as likely to be as successful at trying to pick your nose whilst wearing boxing gloves.
I admire your patience.
Sadly, when it comes to trying to have a reasonable discourse with some of the posters on pprune you are as likely to be as successful at trying to pick your nose whilst wearing boxing gloves.
Last edited by JW411; 23rd May 2013 at 17:52.
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JW411
Jolly decent of you old man. Clearly some people don't read what is in front of them, preferring instead to see what they think is written - perhaps based on their preconceptions! You can take a horse to water etc! Stay Safe.
Last edited by Canadian Break; 23rd May 2013 at 18:28.
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I still frequently hear SAS being called several times on the frequencies. Apparently they did not learn from this occurance. 
German ATC recently avoided pressing the huge red button, by calling the airline and asked them to send an ACARS message to a flight that lost communication.
I was once called on 121.5 only a few minutes after checking in on a frequency and getting "indentified". We never got a proper explanation, other than we were out of the other sector. We never got a frequency change from the sector we left.
I find it strange that in the UK you think you should use the emergency frequency for training calls. Imagine if that was practice all over Europe!
German ATC recently avoided pressing the huge red button, by calling the airline and asked them to send an ACARS message to a flight that lost communication.
I was once called on 121.5 only a few minutes after checking in on a frequency and getting "indentified". We never got a proper explanation, other than we were out of the other sector. We never got a frequency change from the sector we left.
I find it strange that in the UK you think you should use the emergency frequency for training calls. Imagine if that was practice all over Europe!
Last edited by B-U-S-S; 23rd May 2013 at 21:36.
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Training Calls
Nowhere in this thread have I - or anyone else that I can see, ever suggested using 121.5 for training calls. it is however used as a means of contact of last resort, after all, and I do mean ALL, other means of contacting an aircraft that is not talking to any agency fails to respond.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Originally Posted by B-U-S-S
I find it strange that in the UK you think you should use the emergency frequency for training calls. Imagine if that was practice all over Europe!
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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B-U-S-S Have done - and????
The practice Pan thing has been done to death many times on this forum. There are very good reasons for its usage and no PP lasts more than a few minutes.
MAS - I think CB was merely responding to the preceding post?
The practice Pan thing has been done to death many times on this forum. There are very good reasons for its usage and no PP lasts more than a few minutes.
MAS - I think CB was merely responding to the preceding post?
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It is one of the main reasons why 121.5 is often turned down when I fly in UK (and adjacent) airspace.
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Yes, but it depends on the airspace in question. the SAS flight was flying over the North Sea, and that area can be rather quiet.
All I do when the radio has gone quiet is request a radio check. Problem solved!
All I do when the radio has gone quiet is request a radio check. Problem solved!
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BOAC: It was for CB.
Surely, it must have been done to death several times on this forum, cause apparently it is a nuisance to many pilots.
Apparently it is also only in the UK they think it is necessary to occupy the emergency frequency for a few minutes.
Nowhere in this thread have I - or anyone else that I can see, ever suggested using 121.5 for training calls.
Apparently it is also only in the UK they think it is necessary to occupy the emergency frequency for a few minutes.