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A321 runway excursion Lyon.

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A321 runway excursion Lyon.

Old 30th Mar 2013, 11:14
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A321 runway excursion Lyon.

Incident: Hermes A321 at Lyon Runway Excursion | Aerosoft Sim News

A Hermes Airlines Airbus A321-100 on behalf of Air Mediterranee, registration SX-BHS performing flight ML-7817 from Agadir (Morocco) to Lyon (France) with 174 passengers and 7 crew, overran the end of the runway 36R while landing at Lyon at about 20:50L (19:50Z) and came to a stop about 300 meters past the runway end with all gear on soft ground.
No injuries are being reported.
The airport was closed for about 2.5 hours. The aircraft is estimated to be removed the following day, the runway remains closed until the aircraft has been towed to the apron.
The airport confirmed the aircraft overran the end of runway B by about 300 meters while landing in thick fog and got stuck in deep mud.
Heavy equipment will be needed to move the aircraft back onto paved surface.

Incident: Hermes A321 at Lyon on Mar 29th 2013, runway excursion

For french speakers:
Lyon : sortie de piste d'un Airbus d'Air Méditerranée - Le Point

Last edited by sleeper; 30th Mar 2013 at 12:01.
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Old 30th Mar 2013, 13:16
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If the first reports are right thats some overrun the explantions will be intresting as will the excuses.
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Old 30th Mar 2013, 14:21
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LDA 2670m for 36R. 4000m for 36L. To go 300m off the end of a near 2700m runway takes some doing. If it was "thick fog" then it would be Autoland so possible confusion about which runway they were on and where to exit? It'll be an interesting FDR to see what speed they had at exit.

Just looked at actuals - slight tailwind component (!), viz circa 2k, RVR's 1700m, cloud base SCT/BKN 100-200'. Not what I'd call "thick fog" but I'd elect to Autoland due to cloudbase.

Last edited by A4; 30th Mar 2013 at 14:30.
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Old 30th Mar 2013, 14:30
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Some good work is being done in the area of long landings and other causes of overruns:

Landing Long: Why Does It Happen?
Report no.
NLR-TP-2011-120

Author(s)
G.W.H. van Es


A STUDY OF RUNWAY EXCURSIONS FROM A EUROPEAN PERSPECTIVE
Report no.
NLR-CR-2010-259

Author(s)
G.W.H. van Es


Australian Transportation Safety Board:
Runway excursions
Part 1: A worldwide review of commercial jet aircraft runway excursions


Part 2: Minimising the likelihood and consequences of runway excursions
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Old 30th Mar 2013, 15:47
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As well as being fitted to the A380 and A350, Airbus have announced that ROPS will eventually be available an an option/retrofit on their other current types, A321 included.
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Old 30th Mar 2013, 16:02
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I'm not sure if I fully understand what ROPS will do. It will say "runway too short", and then you step much harder on the brakes and select full reverse? Or will it tell you to go around before that?

edit - I found the answer here: http://www2.icao.int/en/GRSS2011/Doc...e%20Lelaie.pdf
looks like a simple and good idea, to add an extra layer of safety

Last edited by deptrai; 31st Mar 2013 at 02:31.
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Old 30th Mar 2013, 16:19
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Another unnecessary "Low Visibility" near accident???

Another apparent low visibility landing near accident?? When will operators, ANSPs, and OEMs finally realize this is completely unnecessary, now with RNP and GLS potentially available for every runway end on which jet transports operate. To continue this "non-precision" approach madness, or even sustained use of flawed and unnecessarily expensive ILS, as in the A340 "event" at LFPG on March 13, 2012 (see Flight International 19-25 March 2013, page 15) with air transport jet aircraft, is not only unnecessary, ... it now borders on being irresponsible. We can do much better, much safer, much more efficiently, AT LOWER fully allocated cost. It is long past time to fully implement RNP and GLS globally.
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Old 30th Mar 2013, 17:35
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Tom,

So how do you carry out a landing in 75m RVR using RNP/GLS? Not quite sure why you consider ILS "non-precision" - the AF A340 incident at LFPG you refer to cannot be blamed on the ILS installation. It looks like a complete SA breakdown on the part of the crew followed by a totally inappropriate/incorrect course of action by said crew.

There has to be more to this over-run than meets the eye. We don't even know if they were auto landing. If it isn't brake failure I'd put money on them thinking they were on the 4000m runway.......
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Old 30th Mar 2013, 18:30
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If it isn't brake failure I'd put money on them thinking they were on the 4000m runway.......
My thoughts exactly!
First thing in my mind when I read about the accident was "how can you go off the end of one of the longest runways of Europe?".
Didn't realise that one is shorter then the other (but then, don't have an approach plate under my nose...)
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Old 31st Mar 2013, 07:42
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A couple of pics:

http://www.ledauphine.com/isere-nord/2013/03/31/nous-avons-eu-peur-que-l-avion-s-enflame
Sortie de piste d'un avion d'Air Méditerranée à Lyon
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Old 31st Mar 2013, 08:19
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The passenger interviewed in that link said that a little while after touchdown there was "intensive" braking, plus the sound of reverse thrust, greater than he would normally have expected.
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Old 31st Mar 2013, 08:30
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I think there is more to it, than mistaking the runway lenghts.
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Old 31st Mar 2013, 09:22
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Judging by the amount of mud on the fuselage forward of the wing it looks like full reverse has been used. If the pax reports hard braking are correct then it only leaves one possibility - long landing - manual or Autoland float with the tailwind......
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Old 31st Mar 2013, 10:14
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I very much doubt the Aircraft would land that long during an Autoland.
Even if it did float you can still Go Around before you select Reverse.

Fast manual Landing with a tailwind? Perhaps...
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Old 31st Mar 2013, 10:46
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Many moons ago there was either an OEB or FCOM Bulletin specifically about Autoland long FLARE / float. There is a current FCOM Bulletin (FCB27) which talks about Autoland performance to do with unusual terrain and RA issues. This shouldn't apply to 36R as it's pretty flat in short final. However this may have been an old unmodded A321 (I've no idea) which may have been susceptible to the Long Float phenomena. Perhaps someone with a better memory than me can recall the issue?

Even if they were slightly fast, with a tailwind......300m off a 2700+m runway with hard braking and full reverse....... Very odd.

Last edited by A4; 31st Mar 2013 at 14:18.
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Old 31st Mar 2013, 11:07
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The comments from the lady passenger suggests that they sat in the aircraft about one and a half hours with very little assistance from the cabin crew (with such requests as water) and one PA announcement in incomprehensible English from the Captain. Lucky it wasn't such a serious event. I wonder what would have transpired if an emergency evacuation had been needed. Note that the flight was operated for a French carrier (in their livery) by a Greek registered a/c and obviously non French speaking crew.
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Old 31st Mar 2013, 18:19
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ILS has well documented vulnerability and failure modes (e.g, interference, beam bends, multiple glide paths, over flight disturbances, flight inspection use restrictions for both LOC and GS, tidal effects on GS formation, snow effects on beam shape and angle) dating back to the 1930s, ...which is why we still have ILS critical area protection provisions in places like Annex 10, the AIM, and Order 7110.65, ....and why ILS is often NOTAMed OTS just when you need it the most, during snowstorms. As to the LFPG event, GLS can provide a glideslope without fear of encountering multiple GS angles, for safe and efficient RNP capture from either above or below the FAS path. As for RVR 75m, GLS performance and integrity are far better right now that when we did the original Cat III approvals based on ILS back in the early '70s. GLS is entirely capable of supporting fail-op Cat III with RVR advisory, for any TD, mid, or rollout RVR reported. The future is RNP and GLS. It is time to recognize that due to both inherent weaknesses, and high costs, ILSs days are numbered.
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Old 31st Mar 2013, 18:21
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Your credentials?

@ Ozymandias

And your credentials to speak here?
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Old 31st Mar 2013, 18:37
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If you look at the aerial view of the end of 36R on Av Herald you can just imagine the crew saying -"Ah - we'll take the next high speed then...................."

Tom - whatever the merits of your argument, this was not "Another apparent low visibility landing near accident??"
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Old 31st Mar 2013, 19:01
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A few points:
The bus warns you if it detects a long flare during an autoland.The runway should also have coloured lighting to warn you that you are approaching the end.
The A321 has crap brakes and at a typical charter landing weight will gobble up the distance if only idle reverse and low autobrake are selected.The reversers on the IAE engine never seem as effective as those with CFM.

Last edited by tubby linton; 31st Mar 2013 at 19:02.
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