RYR 'forgot' to get landing clearance!
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 2,584
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nice to see people standing up for the drivers here. I'm no Ryanair fan at all and frankly its hard to defend landing an airliner without clearance, BUT...
The list of "but"s is a long one.
On the face of it an incident like this is likely to be rooted in either complacency of a surprising degree, or fatigue. We've all been there, and I'm sure we all read this tale with a slightly smug but sympathetic feeling of "Jeez! Glad it wasn't me!"
Landing without clearance is rightly regarded as a serious error but on a realistic scale of added hazard its some way down the list. Lie somewhere near the bottom imho. In good vis and assuming usual visual alertness its a pretty much no-extra-hazard event isn't it?
Problem arises when non aviation people (the meeja-led pubberlik) assume that everything a pilot does "obviously" has to be "with permission" in order to turn the event from immediately fatal to perfectly safe. Its a report bred of a fundamental lack of understanding and also the emotions based on scores of hollywood derived assumptions. eg the spurious crap about listening to emergency channels during landing. How many dangerous situations would we get into if that were a regular feature of our approaches - I'm thinking "practice Pan, practice Pan" all day long in summer UK.
Sadly my company (not too far from Ryanair) had SOP'd out of existence the vital ability to incorporate landing light switching as an aide memoire, this being part of the endless drive to destroy Airmanship in the name of conformity.
Dutch Capt, 22yr old FO, you have my sympathy in your current troubles, esp given where the incident occurred.
The list of "but"s is a long one.
On the face of it an incident like this is likely to be rooted in either complacency of a surprising degree, or fatigue. We've all been there, and I'm sure we all read this tale with a slightly smug but sympathetic feeling of "Jeez! Glad it wasn't me!"
Landing without clearance is rightly regarded as a serious error but on a realistic scale of added hazard its some way down the list. Lie somewhere near the bottom imho. In good vis and assuming usual visual alertness its a pretty much no-extra-hazard event isn't it?
Problem arises when non aviation people (the meeja-led pubberlik) assume that everything a pilot does "obviously" has to be "with permission" in order to turn the event from immediately fatal to perfectly safe. Its a report bred of a fundamental lack of understanding and also the emotions based on scores of hollywood derived assumptions. eg the spurious crap about listening to emergency channels during landing. How many dangerous situations would we get into if that were a regular feature of our approaches - I'm thinking "practice Pan, practice Pan" all day long in summer UK.
Sadly my company (not too far from Ryanair) had SOP'd out of existence the vital ability to incorporate landing light switching as an aide memoire, this being part of the endless drive to destroy Airmanship in the name of conformity.
Dutch Capt, 22yr old FO, you have my sympathy in your current troubles, esp given where the incident occurred.
JW411
Couldn't agree more - now that airline SOPs have an ever increasing amount of standard calls, which must be strictly adhered to, they are increasingly blotting out ATC calls as we seem to talk continuously from 10-15,000'. Add 121.5 in Europe and it is a serious distraction.
This problem increases despite the current push for ensuring less distraction in the cockpit in the descent and approach (ban on sipping water being discussed in EASA land)
One thing's for sure - miss an ATC call which leads to an incident, through listening out to the chat on 121.5, and you'll even find the Spanish authorities completely changing their "recommendation" and you'll be toasted.
I would consider such advice to be a serious flight safety hazard
This problem increases despite the current push for ensuring less distraction in the cockpit in the descent and approach (ban on sipping water being discussed in EASA land)
One thing's for sure - miss an ATC call which leads to an incident, through listening out to the chat on 121.5, and you'll even find the Spanish authorities completely changing their "recommendation" and you'll be toasted.
Last edited by Good Business Sense; 17th Mar 2013 at 23:14.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: ...
Posts: 3,753
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The plane, flown by a 47-year-old Dutch captain and a British co-pilot, 22, took off from East Midlands, in Leicestershire, at about 7pm on January 6, 2011.
Ryanair notes the CIAIAC *report into an aircraft landing at Alicante Airport on January 6, 2011, and the recommendations outlined within.
Spanish atc have a gripe with ryanair, this report of a minor event that happened 2 years ago makes quite clear how petty they are! I believe this was during the air traffic controller strikes in spain, when indeed military controllers took over and forced the controllers to work. Which might explain the controllers horrible attitude.
Ryanair pilots 'forgot' saftey procedures
Last edited by 737Jock; 17th Mar 2013 at 23:29.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 194
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re 121.5 - I've been at my current unit for 10 years and haven't had the ability to listen to that freq since before I joined. At my last unit, it was removed about 15 or so years ago.
Might be a different case in Spain.
Not sure what the controllers were doing though - if the chap on final hasn't called by about 4nm, and doesn't answer a call, then chances are they are still on the previous freq so a quick call to the previous controller would usually sort that out, or failing that, blind transmissions, clearing the guy to land or go around.
It seems a bit mean to not make best efforts to contact the aircraft and then file on them!
For all I can't bear MOL, personally I've always found the RYR crews as professional as any other airline, and in some cases, a bit more "can do" than some
Might be a different case in Spain.
Not sure what the controllers were doing though - if the chap on final hasn't called by about 4nm, and doesn't answer a call, then chances are they are still on the previous freq so a quick call to the previous controller would usually sort that out, or failing that, blind transmissions, clearing the guy to land or go around.
It seems a bit mean to not make best efforts to contact the aircraft and then file on them!
For all I can't bear MOL, personally I've always found the RYR crews as professional as any other airline, and in some cases, a bit more "can do" than some
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: guess where...
Posts: 112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Easternwiseguy
Is it just the UK that retains ALDIS in the Tower?
Back on topic, the event seems pretty straigthforward and as pointed out before, errors do happen ... on both sides of the radio. Fortunately these kind of things do tend to happen when it's a bit quiter on the frecuency (and I assume this was the case as the atcos weren't aware they had a plane about to land) so no great safety risk this time.
As for the supposed horrible attitude of the controllers I can't really fault them from what I read from the article. First of all you all know that safety reports are mandatory and not aimed to blame anyone but to identify problems and resolve them before they turn into an accident. This was a serious (in terms of possible consequences) error and therefore they had to report it, no matter what explanation the captain could have offered.
This is especially true during the time when spanish atcos had military supervisors next to them on duty and were subject to military law.
In any case take that report with a grain on salt... CIAIAC does not have precisely a sparkling reputation and has been repeatedly pointed at for always placing the blame on the pilot/atco while never finding anything wrong with Aena... see the report on the spanair accident in Madrid, for example.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: nowhere
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was an ATCO for over 30 years & witnessed several aircraft (from well known airlines) land without receiving a clearance. On every occasion it was not a big deal. There was no other a/c on the runway (or cleared onto the runway - & I kept a good look out for any incursions). I just let the lander continue to touchdown without making a fuss.
In these circumstances I did not feel the need to admonish the pilot, simply to remind him of the need to receive a clearance before landing (once he had landed). I think safety was served just as well by this procedure rather than going into print on the occurrence.
Perhaps, by doing this, the pilot was embarrassed sufficiently to make sure that he never did it again !
In these circumstances I did not feel the need to admonish the pilot, simply to remind him of the need to receive a clearance before landing (once he had landed). I think safety was served just as well by this procedure rather than going into print on the occurrence.
Perhaps, by doing this, the pilot was embarrassed sufficiently to make sure that he never did it again !
If you see someone about to land at say 100 feet and you are OK with it, why don't you just transmit a quick landing clearance and therefore prevent the pilot from having to write a report and perhaps be suspended. You will likely get a thank you.
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Australia
Age: 33
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think I might then remind you to give me the landing clearance prior to landing.
If you see someone about to land at say 100 feet and you are OK with it, why don't you just transmit a quick landing clearance and therefore prevent the pilot from having to write a report and perhaps be suspended. You will likely get a thank you.
If you see someone about to land at say 100 feet and you are OK with it, why don't you just transmit a quick landing clearance and therefore prevent the pilot from having to write a report and perhaps be suspended. You will likely get a thank you.
The calls usually come in well before my personal decision point, only once was it an issue but that was my first solo and they were trying hard to make sure I got down on my first circuit, however the clown ahead of me decided to keep taxiing on the runway to save the taxiways and I ended up just going around.
And on especially busy days when the guys are really taking a battering I do try give them a gentle nudge, or if the traffic pattern is so bunched just go around to spread things out.
I can understand that the pilots made a mistake and it wasn't deliberate, and we all have, but I can't really understand how two people didn't twig at any point on the approach, it just seems like something that would have come up at some point...
Last edited by J03BL0GGS; 18th Mar 2013 at 08:58.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 2,584
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Herod, that depends on the airline of course.
In mine it is "up to the crew" which a distressing proportion (100% of FOs and I suspect a great many Captains) take as an opportunity to demonstrate their pavlovian mania for a microscopic and probably imaginary "fuel saving" by keeping them off/stowed. Even in the busiest airspace in the Europe.
In mine it is "up to the crew" which a distressing proportion (100% of FOs and I suspect a great many Captains) take as an opportunity to demonstrate their pavlovian mania for a microscopic and probably imaginary "fuel saving" by keeping them off/stowed. Even in the busiest airspace in the Europe.
RYR forgot to get landing clearance
JammedStab
I have no problem with what you suggest.
What I wanted to do, with my original reply, was to highlight that this incident was not necessarily catastrophic & that there was, perhaps, no necessity to go into print & make a big deal out of it, or to sensationalise it in any way.
On the occasions in which I witnessed this sort of event, this was certainly the case. But, as you say, it would have been practical to transmit a landing clearance before the a/c had landed.
Having ascertained that there was no danger resulting from "landing without a clearance", I was simply curious to discover whether the pilot realised his mistake & would make a belated request to land.
Nevertheless, I do feel that a quiet word (in these circumstances) is much more beneficial than taking an official, & officious, line & unleashing the full gamut of admonishment & blame which, so often, occurs nowadays - when everyone feels the need to "cover their arses" when the probable involvement of SRG etc. is potentially involved; & to go into print on the matter.
I am so glad that my carrer spanned the years when, what I consider, "common sense" was the most important factor in ATC.
I have no problem with what you suggest.
What I wanted to do, with my original reply, was to highlight that this incident was not necessarily catastrophic & that there was, perhaps, no necessity to go into print & make a big deal out of it, or to sensationalise it in any way.
On the occasions in which I witnessed this sort of event, this was certainly the case. But, as you say, it would have been practical to transmit a landing clearance before the a/c had landed.
Having ascertained that there was no danger resulting from "landing without a clearance", I was simply curious to discover whether the pilot realised his mistake & would make a belated request to land.
Nevertheless, I do feel that a quiet word (in these circumstances) is much more beneficial than taking an official, & officious, line & unleashing the full gamut of admonishment & blame which, so often, occurs nowadays - when everyone feels the need to "cover their arses" when the probable involvement of SRG etc. is potentially involved; & to go into print on the matter.
I am so glad that my carrer spanned the years when, what I consider, "common sense" was the most important factor in ATC.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Location: Location:
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Many Boeings have a minimal checklist attached to the control wheel. My company never used these but there was a sliding marker along one side presumably meant to be used as an aide memoir for how far through the list you had gone.
I made it a habit to use this as a cleared to TO/land indicator - up for TO, down for land.
It was comforting when the FO asked on short finals 'did he clear us to land?' to have something to confirm that 'yes, he has' rather than suddenly wondering whether that was actually on the last sector.
Those who minimise the seriousness of not receiving a clearance may not have had the experience of someone taking off on a runway which crosses the one on which you are just rolling out. I can tell you that it produces a distinct tightening of various sphincter muscles!
I made it a habit to use this as a cleared to TO/land indicator - up for TO, down for land.
It was comforting when the FO asked on short finals 'did he clear us to land?' to have something to confirm that 'yes, he has' rather than suddenly wondering whether that was actually on the last sector.
Those who minimise the seriousness of not receiving a clearance may not have had the experience of someone taking off on a runway which crosses the one on which you are just rolling out. I can tell you that it produces a distinct tightening of various sphincter muscles!
Herod:
"Is it not SOP to have landing lights on below 10,000 feet."
In my last company it was SOP to put the landing lights to "Taxi" at 10,000 ft on the way down. But not to the "Land" selection.
The "Land" selection produced a much higher brightness and resulted in the (very expensive) bulbs having to be replaced much more often for no good reason.
"Is it not SOP to have landing lights on below 10,000 feet."
In my last company it was SOP to put the landing lights to "Taxi" at 10,000 ft on the way down. But not to the "Land" selection.
The "Land" selection produced a much higher brightness and resulted in the (very expensive) bulbs having to be replaced much more often for no good reason.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
Posts: 4,507
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is more than a 'landing without clearance issue'. Someone mentioned RYR has a landing clearance action of using the retractable landing lights, and that this is in the check list. Thus this is also about not completing a checklist. That is a more interesting issue; how it might happen? Was there such a rush? Either way a checklist is a checklist.
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 816
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Errors are human nature. Say 1 in 1000 times you mishear, misunderstand, forget the clearance, but the guy in the other seat rectifies your error. This will be the 1 in 1000000 where both pilots missed the call (or lack of it) simultaneously. I would not be surprised distraction from Spanish ATC was a factor. On many occasions in Spain I have had ATC transmitting in barely intelligible broken English a multitude of non-timely information such as turnoffs, taxi routings, parking stands, while we're flying down the approach trying to configure the aircraft and complete checklists. As for monitoring 121.5 whilst on approach and inviting more distraction and noise - no way.
Cannot find a report on the CIAIC website in either Spanish or English but avherald report is here:
Incident: Ryanair B738 at Alicante on Jan 6th 2011, landed without clearance
Incident: Ryanair B738 at Alicante on Jan 6th 2011, landed without clearance