Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

BE1900 IMC CFIT in Alaska

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

BE1900 IMC CFIT in Alaska

Old 24th Mar 2013, 02:25
  #101 (permalink)  
Person Of Interest
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Floral City, Florida, USA
Age: 64
Posts: 836
The DBV Approach is almost like the one in Trabzon, Turkey...When I flew a jet (727) full of passengers into there at night and/or low vis conditions...I always kept in mind one thing...If everything starts to go south...TURN RIGHT!!! Over the Black Sea...Maybe not correct, but if you lose situational awarness...at night, in IMC, Over the sea is better than towards the mountains....

As has been beaten to death here on this thread by many of us "greybeards"...if you're not sure where you are at, IMC or at night being at 2,000' is not the time or place to try to figure it out....
DownIn3Green is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2013, 08:13
  #102 (permalink)  
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,582
Originally Posted by aterpster
because the same terrain controls for both the inner area and the holding pattern.
- my post was about ACTUAL MSAs, not some 'TAA' figure - out of interest, why 4300'for TAA when MSA is 4100'? What are the criteria for TAAs?
BOAC is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2013, 10:48
  #103 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 457
TAA criteria are in Vol. 4 of Order 8260.58

FAA AFS-420 web site hosts all TERPS Orders on this page.
Zeffy is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2013, 12:24
  #104 (permalink)  
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,582
Thanks again, Zeffy - I could not find any reference to the ROC for TAA procedures (mind you, I got dizzy with all the maths................) Overall it seems odd that the hold at INDRA (1 nm inside ZEDAG) is considered safe at 3800' and yet when we switch to TAA procedures it jumps to 4300'. I assume there is a different (increased) ROC since the terrain is no less 'challenging'.

Incidentally, I see that 8260.19E at 2.74 calls for 200' to be added as an AAO which may account for the 200' discrepancy we see between the FAA and Jepp chart 'spot heights' (basically to allow for the 199' mast), and 2750' + 1000' gives us the 3800' hold, I guess.

Just glad I never had to construct procedures..........................

Sorry for the diversion and back to the accident.
BOAC is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2013, 12:31
  #105 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 457
Yes, the criteria are not for the faint of heart.

In a very small nutshell: ROC values for TAAs are the same as for airways.
Zeffy is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2013, 14:30
  #106 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: On the Beach
Posts: 3,292
BOAC:

Incidentally, I see that 8260.19E at 2.74 calls for 200' to be added as an AAO which may account for the 200' discrepancy we see between the FAA and Jepp chart 'spot heights' (basically to allow for the 199' mast), and 2750' + 1000' gives us the 3800' hold, I guess.
Chart makers don't use AAO for reference obstacles.

But, the designers made additives to the holding pattern's minimum ROC of 1,000, probably for precipitous terrain and, more important at this location, cold station altimeter errors.
aterpster is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2013, 14:38
  #107 (permalink)  
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,582
Chart makers don't use AAO for reference obstacles.
- I was talking ROC not reference obstacles, and Jepp seem to have added 175' (to the reference obstacle)

Last edited by BOAC; 24th Mar 2013 at 14:57.
BOAC is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2013, 16:27
  #108 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: On the Beach
Posts: 3,292
BOAC:

- I was talking ROC not reference obstacles, and Jepp seem to have added 175' (to the reference obstacle)
I was speaking of both in the total context of this aspect of the RNAV 19 procedure. I have no idea how Jeppesen came up with the value they show.
aterpster is offline  
Old 11th Aug 2014, 17:40
  #109 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 457
NTSB Report

Accident Docket

ATC Factual
Zeffy is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.