Swiss flight "robbed" on the apron in Brussels
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SP479
One of the most basic of security principles is the 'need to know'.
As a B747/777 engineer, I would not discuss such detailed aircraft access information/advice with total strangers in a bar. I fail to see how broadcasting it so blatantly in an open-access forum could be construed to be in the best interests of aviation security.
One of the most basic of security principles is the 'need to know'.
As a B747/777 engineer, I would not discuss such detailed aircraft access information/advice with total strangers in a bar. I fail to see how broadcasting it so blatantly in an open-access forum could be construed to be in the best interests of aviation security.
One of the most basic of security principles is the 'need to know'.
As for the heist I certainly agree that breaching the perimeter fence is something that could happen almost anywhere - no need to hide it from public forums either. The whole question is how they managed to get away undisturbed
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Atakacs, your naivety on this subject is evident; security of sensitive information is central to any effective security system - we do not deliberately feed the 'opposition' with valuable insights.
Certainly, we can & should discuss events such as this in the public domain, without revealing detailed aspects of procedure & operations - it is immaterial whether such information could be gleaned from other sources by intelligent & determined research. By observing such 'good practice', we are ultimately looking after our ourselves, our colleagues & the public. A quarter of a century in military service, before my civil aviation career, instilled this in me.
This audacious robbery (I object to the glamourising americanism 'heist'; this was an armed robbery - people can & will be killed in such) could & should have been prevented by a major police presence on the Ramp at the scene, such as I have witnessed at other airports when high-value cargo is being moved.
Certainly, we can & should discuss events such as this in the public domain, without revealing detailed aspects of procedure & operations - it is immaterial whether such information could be gleaned from other sources by intelligent & determined research. By observing such 'good practice', we are ultimately looking after our ourselves, our colleagues & the public. A quarter of a century in military service, before my civil aviation career, instilled this in me.
This audacious robbery (I object to the glamourising americanism 'heist'; this was an armed robbery - people can & will be killed in such) could & should have been prevented by a major police presence on the Ramp at the scene, such as I have witnessed at other airports when high-value cargo is being moved.
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Guys, you dont need a concrete wall to have a safe wall. Thats last century defense...
Most of the airports have an extensive network of cameras part of an integrated security system. Motions sensors and all that jazz. To have such a breach and the guys to get away is appaling.
Many secured perimetres are using a double wire fence with a gap in between them. It just takes longer to penetrate, allows the security watchmen to observe and intervene, if somebody tries. Im not familiar with BRU, however its amazing how they didnt learn anything from the past experiences.
LE: photos and details.
Diamond heist: Robbers steal £32m worth of precious stones at Brussels Airport | Mail Online
Most of the airports have an extensive network of cameras part of an integrated security system. Motions sensors and all that jazz. To have such a breach and the guys to get away is appaling.
Many secured perimetres are using a double wire fence with a gap in between them. It just takes longer to penetrate, allows the security watchmen to observe and intervene, if somebody tries. Im not familiar with BRU, however its amazing how they didnt learn anything from the past experiences.
LE: photos and details.
Diamond heist: Robbers steal £32m worth of precious stones at Brussels Airport | Mail Online
Last edited by skytrax; 20th Feb 2013 at 12:18.
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I'm in BRU a couple of times next month. I do hope someone will be kind enough to bung some diamonds my way if they really are so plentiful that they can afford to be so careless. A couple of kilos will be fine, after all I'm not greedy & given their security is clearly as watertight as a fishing net, I'd prefer to keep them in my hand baggage.
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"Most of the airports have an extensive network of cameras part of an integrated security system. Motions sensors and all that jazz. To have such a breach and the guys to get away is appaling."
it's an old army maxim that it doesn't matter what barriers & obstacles you put in place if no-one is watching them they are at best an inconvenience to the bad guys
it's an old army maxim that it doesn't matter what barriers & obstacles you put in place if no-one is watching them they are at best an inconvenience to the bad guys
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re LX robbery
The answer is simple - Lousy security at this airport.
I also blame Brinks - they should have known better and be more prepared.
It was just a matter of time. LX will also have to review their procedures.
I also blame Brinks - they should have known better and be more prepared.
It was just a matter of time. LX will also have to review their procedures.
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Pprune followers shooting the messanger?
Wouldya lay off woodja51 and give him credit for trying to highlight a genuine security concern!
If he has tried by conventional and normal channels to alert those higher in the food chain to a weakness in the security setup and been rebuffed or ignored, then I applaud his courage in posting it here.
I was reluctant myself to offer the "burning jeep into the path of the V1 aircraft" scenario in case the wrong people see it and have a go. But I don't see any means to communicate such a possibility to the faceless ones who took and take such pleasure at making aircrew lives so unpleasant as we transit to our work, whilst leaving these opportunities for terrorist actions untouched.
Following the next avation terrorist success, they will blandly and complacently brag about the post 9/11 measures introduced, whilst avoiding the question as to why these potential weak points were not addressed to prevent or make more difficult such an attack.
As in most things connected with aviation, it's once again "The Tombstone Imperative" which will get action taken-AFTER THE EVENT.
Let's wake up and smell the coffee, there's a lot of money needs to be spent on airfield security, but airport owners and regulatory authorities who are beholden to them are only interested in cramming another retail outlet into the shopping centre beside the runway(s).
woodja51 reminds me of the NHS whistleblower recently highlighted in the scandals affecting UK hospitals, who tried but was gagged and paid off to keep schtum about safety issues.
woodja, I sincerely applaud you and wish you all the best in pushing water uphill!!
If he has tried by conventional and normal channels to alert those higher in the food chain to a weakness in the security setup and been rebuffed or ignored, then I applaud his courage in posting it here.
I was reluctant myself to offer the "burning jeep into the path of the V1 aircraft" scenario in case the wrong people see it and have a go. But I don't see any means to communicate such a possibility to the faceless ones who took and take such pleasure at making aircrew lives so unpleasant as we transit to our work, whilst leaving these opportunities for terrorist actions untouched.
Following the next avation terrorist success, they will blandly and complacently brag about the post 9/11 measures introduced, whilst avoiding the question as to why these potential weak points were not addressed to prevent or make more difficult such an attack.
As in most things connected with aviation, it's once again "The Tombstone Imperative" which will get action taken-AFTER THE EVENT.
Let's wake up and smell the coffee, there's a lot of money needs to be spent on airfield security, but airport owners and regulatory authorities who are beholden to them are only interested in cramming another retail outlet into the shopping centre beside the runway(s).
woodja51 reminds me of the NHS whistleblower recently highlighted in the scandals affecting UK hospitals, who tried but was gagged and paid off to keep schtum about safety issues.
woodja, I sincerely applaud you and wish you all the best in pushing water uphill!!
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Surprised that it's still chain link fencing. I got involved in perimeter security in a railwa rolling stock depot context a few years ago and we went for high spec weldmesh panels topped with razor wire (and warning notices about the razor wire to protect our lawyers' ars*s against the risk of injury to the little tinkers with spraycans). The fences can be double-skinned to increase resistance to break-in. Still vulnerable to some extent to attack by circular saw, but time to get through the fence is significantly increased. It strikes me that if rail companies can make a case for this investment to protect against graffiti attacks, the air industry should be able to do so on the basis of the order-of-magnitude higher risks involved. But then what do I know....
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May I remind you all of this incident! This guy stole a police car in the City, drove it to the airport! Broke through a fence and , well you can see the rest in the video!
BTW Are crew trained for situations like this? In the video you can see the cabin crew of the plane parked looking out and watching whats going on!They then shut the doors and push away the steps locking themselves in the plane! Is this standard security procedure? Or was it just a decision taken by the crew at that moment? AFAIK the plane was half boarded!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RD8MMMi3X0A
BTW Are crew trained for situations like this? In the video you can see the cabin crew of the plane parked looking out and watching whats going on!They then shut the doors and push away the steps locking themselves in the plane! Is this standard security procedure? Or was it just a decision taken by the crew at that moment? AFAIK the plane was half boarded!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RD8MMMi3X0A
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It's not a case of what you know but who you know. Bit like all airport security intelligence is the key. Once had an ex at a busy International airport wander onto the ramp and into a 74F with Load sheet,F/P etc and just asked her to ask the skipper if PLOG fuel was OK. I was knackered and couldn't be bothered 
I trusted her, and a lot of this is all common sense, someone somewhere was looking at those manifests......
I trusted her, and a lot of this is all common sense, someone somewhere was looking at those manifests......
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Cost vs benefit. What was the value of the items stolen? What is the value of items stolen over time? How much do you need to spend to try and stop it? At some point you start getting deminishing returns. The more you want to stop people getting through the more it will cost. Keeping in mind that there are multiple threats that we are trying to defeat the costs and inconvenience can go up markedly and still there is a chance someone who is determined and can put a plan together will get through.
The second question 'after how did this happen?' is 'do we really need to do anything more to stop it or do we put it down to the price of doing business?'
I'm not saying that we should accept this sort of thing at a moral level but we already put up with stupid and ineffective measures that make our lives that much worse on a daily basis in the name of 'security'. Lets not have a knee jerk reaction and spend lots of money making life worse but no harder for the committed thief.
The second question 'after how did this happen?' is 'do we really need to do anything more to stop it or do we put it down to the price of doing business?'
I'm not saying that we should accept this sort of thing at a moral level but we already put up with stupid and ineffective measures that make our lives that much worse on a daily basis in the name of 'security'. Lets not have a knee jerk reaction and spend lots of money making life worse but no harder for the committed thief.
Last edited by Roger Greendeck; 21st Feb 2013 at 01:46.
When there's miles of perimeter fence, some spots will be weaker than others from a security standpoint.
High value shipments typically rely upon "security by obscurity" to the great profit of certain moles. I would not be surprised if the spending habits of employees in the various concerns will be carefully monitored. Somebody may decide to take early retirement and not return from vacation in Brazil
Prevention of this kind of robbery requires an armed motorised escort until cleared for takeoff and the same at the end of the landing run.
But if the armed escort disables the robbers' vehicles, you end up with a bunch of seriously armed men running around the tarmac with potentially thousands of innocent people about-- potentially very messy.
The airport authorities might prefer these folks vacate the premises pronto and let the police do their work.
High value shipments typically rely upon "security by obscurity" to the great profit of certain moles. I would not be surprised if the spending habits of employees in the various concerns will be carefully monitored. Somebody may decide to take early retirement and not return from vacation in Brazil
Prevention of this kind of robbery requires an armed motorised escort until cleared for takeoff and the same at the end of the landing run.
But if the armed escort disables the robbers' vehicles, you end up with a bunch of seriously armed men running around the tarmac with potentially thousands of innocent people about-- potentially very messy.
The airport authorities might prefer these folks vacate the premises pronto and let the police do their work.
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Thanks!
Hi, not sure of the flack I may have recieved from other posters( my posts seem to disappear? ) but thank you for your words of encouragement.
While I take little pleasure in having to post information of a sensitive nature on open sites, it is only after much frustration with a lack of action that leads me inexorably to do this.
Blood in the streets appears to be the only way humans can react to " black swan events" regardless of how often they are told...
I appreciate comments of encouragement when it appears to me that official reaction is that of general denial.. Note three more suspected terrorists arrested in UK for planned back pack attacks... Do you think the world is safer since 9/11? Me thinks not!
For those critical of my spreading of information to those who should not know, simple solution is to fix the problem not live in hope...
And yes after 13 years in the military, need to know is vital to security, but the internet has pretty much blown that one out of the water... Now we have to assume the other side knows and act accordingly..
Risk = probability x consequence. If the product of these is high do something about it rather than hope someone cleverer than you is covering the problem... Chances are they are not...
While I take little pleasure in having to post information of a sensitive nature on open sites, it is only after much frustration with a lack of action that leads me inexorably to do this.
Blood in the streets appears to be the only way humans can react to " black swan events" regardless of how often they are told...
I appreciate comments of encouragement when it appears to me that official reaction is that of general denial.. Note three more suspected terrorists arrested in UK for planned back pack attacks... Do you think the world is safer since 9/11? Me thinks not!
For those critical of my spreading of information to those who should not know, simple solution is to fix the problem not live in hope...
And yes after 13 years in the military, need to know is vital to security, but the internet has pretty much blown that one out of the water... Now we have to assume the other side knows and act accordingly..
Risk = probability x consequence. If the product of these is high do something about it rather than hope someone cleverer than you is covering the problem... Chances are they are not...
Something to remember is that the bad guys will use Prune for info and confirmation by aviation professionals.
I think most of us are aware that intelligence is gathered, not all neatly laid out, but by piecing together little snippets of new info and confirmation of existing knowledge.
We should avoid giving info or putting ideas into heads.
I think most of us are aware that intelligence is gathered, not all neatly laid out, but by piecing together little snippets of new info and confirmation of existing knowledge.
We should avoid giving info or putting ideas into heads.
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Agreed and budget cuts to make worse.....
Agreed , but if we assume that over the course of time these ideas will evolve, is it not best to do something about it early.. And if the recent sequestering ( ie budget cuts) in the US are going to cause a reduction in TSA staff , then the potential holes get bigger... Of course all US citizens would be aware that the 2004 TSA act included a $2.40 per passenger TSA fee ... Which is about to be , if not already increased to 4.00.
Ipso facto if the passengers are paying for the security service, how can it be affected by budget cuts??? Ah.... Probably as the money just goes to consolidated revenue and not actually to the service it was instituted to actually provide... Just like nav charges and landing fees are supposed to cover ATC and aerodrome facilities ...
Once again money collected on a user pays basis in theory or as justification, but not actually used for what it was collected for... If it were budget cuts would have no effect as the system would be self sustaining.....
Ipso facto if the passengers are paying for the security service, how can it be affected by budget cuts??? Ah.... Probably as the money just goes to consolidated revenue and not actually to the service it was instituted to actually provide... Just like nav charges and landing fees are supposed to cover ATC and aerodrome facilities ...
Once again money collected on a user pays basis in theory or as justification, but not actually used for what it was collected for... If it were budget cuts would have no effect as the system would be self sustaining.....
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Of course we in this forum should NOT be putting ideas into the minds of the terrorist community, but alas as soon as this robbery hit the international news media, the chainlink fence weakness was exposed to all the world.
God forbid, but if such an attack takes place, the powers-that-be can not shelter behind the plea that they didn't know about it and didn't conceive of such a daring plan.
The same horse manure was trotted out by the 9/11 official whitewash, though the USA military and other authorities had been practising and drilling for "aircraft as missiles" well before that awful day.
God forbid, but if such an attack takes place, the powers-that-be can not shelter behind the plea that they didn't know about it and didn't conceive of such a daring plan.
The same horse manure was trotted out by the 9/11 official whitewash, though the USA military and other authorities had been practising and drilling for "aircraft as missiles" well before that awful day.
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Now this is another brilliant idea... Not!
The concerns I posted ( and got bagged about) regarding access to the E/E bay in Boeings was in part discredited by regulators,several airlines management based on the lack of easy ability to be able to penetrate the flooring (lino) which is generally intact- except in certain ME carriers 777s..... Well , now that issue has been conveniently discarded by the TSA....
I have been invited but am yet to meet with two Australian senators and representatives from the transport workers unions ( oz) here that have shown interest in my concerns...but it appears that US crew are already (rightly ) concerned as to their inflight welfare.....in Australia the right to a reasonably safe work environment with foreseeable risks mitigated/ treated or removed is in legislation. Why is/are aviation / workers exempt?
The " as low as reasonably practical (ALARP) safety system is being replaced by Affordable level of safety (or ALOS) in new SMS's .... So exactly how does this relate to what is going on below????
What exactly is the cost versus benefit here and for who??........ Read below
From the Australian 06/03/13
POCKET knives and sports equipment - banned on US flights since the September 11, 2001 terrorism attacks - will be allowed back in aircraft cabins, the US Transportation Security Administration (TSA) says.
Passengers will be able to carry knives with folding blades 6cm or shorter, as well as sporting goods such as golf clubs, hockey clubs, and novelty-sized baseball bats, the federal agency said.
TSA chief John Pistole says the new guidelines, which come into effect on April 25, will bring US security regulations into line with international standards.
Among the sporting goods to be allowed as carry-on baggage will be billiard cues, ski poles, hockey sticks, lacrosse sticks and up to two golf clubs, Mr Pistole said.
Baseball bats measuring 60cm or shorter and weighing no more than 680gm will also be permitted.
Box cutters, razor blades and knives that don't fold or that have moulded grip handles will still be prohibited, the TSA said.
"This is part of an overall risk-based security approach, which allows Transportation Security Officers to better focus their efforts on finding higher threat items such as explosives," Mr Pistole said.
( my comment ... Who needs explosives- i just told you how knowledge and NOW a readily available knife will down a jet if that is your objective and not actual control of the flight deck)
The move drew an immediate outcry from unions representing flight attendants and other airline workers, who said the items are still dangerous in the hands of the wrong passengers.
Transport Workers Union Local 556, which represents over 10,000 flight attendants at Southwest Airlines, called the new policy "dangerous" and "short sighted," saying it was designed to make "the lives of TSA staff easier, but not make flights safer."
"While we agree that a passenger wielding a small knife or swinging a golf club or hockey stick poses less of a threat to the pilot locked in the cockpit, these are real threats to passengers and flight attendants in the passenger cabin," the union said in a statement.
There has been a gradual easing of some of the security measures applied to airline passengers after the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks.
In 2005, the TSA changed its policies to allow passengers to carry on airplanes small scissors, knitting needles, tweezers, nail clippers and up to four books of matches.
I have been invited but am yet to meet with two Australian senators and representatives from the transport workers unions ( oz) here that have shown interest in my concerns...but it appears that US crew are already (rightly ) concerned as to their inflight welfare.....in Australia the right to a reasonably safe work environment with foreseeable risks mitigated/ treated or removed is in legislation. Why is/are aviation / workers exempt?
The " as low as reasonably practical (ALARP) safety system is being replaced by Affordable level of safety (or ALOS) in new SMS's .... So exactly how does this relate to what is going on below????
What exactly is the cost versus benefit here and for who??........ Read below
From the Australian 06/03/13
POCKET knives and sports equipment - banned on US flights since the September 11, 2001 terrorism attacks - will be allowed back in aircraft cabins, the US Transportation Security Administration (TSA) says.
Passengers will be able to carry knives with folding blades 6cm or shorter, as well as sporting goods such as golf clubs, hockey clubs, and novelty-sized baseball bats, the federal agency said.
TSA chief John Pistole says the new guidelines, which come into effect on April 25, will bring US security regulations into line with international standards.
Among the sporting goods to be allowed as carry-on baggage will be billiard cues, ski poles, hockey sticks, lacrosse sticks and up to two golf clubs, Mr Pistole said.
Baseball bats measuring 60cm or shorter and weighing no more than 680gm will also be permitted.
Box cutters, razor blades and knives that don't fold or that have moulded grip handles will still be prohibited, the TSA said.
"This is part of an overall risk-based security approach, which allows Transportation Security Officers to better focus their efforts on finding higher threat items such as explosives," Mr Pistole said.
( my comment ... Who needs explosives- i just told you how knowledge and NOW a readily available knife will down a jet if that is your objective and not actual control of the flight deck)
The move drew an immediate outcry from unions representing flight attendants and other airline workers, who said the items are still dangerous in the hands of the wrong passengers.
Transport Workers Union Local 556, which represents over 10,000 flight attendants at Southwest Airlines, called the new policy "dangerous" and "short sighted," saying it was designed to make "the lives of TSA staff easier, but not make flights safer."
"While we agree that a passenger wielding a small knife or swinging a golf club or hockey stick poses less of a threat to the pilot locked in the cockpit, these are real threats to passengers and flight attendants in the passenger cabin," the union said in a statement.
There has been a gradual easing of some of the security measures applied to airline passengers after the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks.
In 2005, the TSA changed its policies to allow passengers to carry on airplanes small scissors, knitting needles, tweezers, nail clippers and up to four books of matches.
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I was working on the ramp at BRU when this little caper took place. The dispatchers were told over their radio that a robbery had occurred, and for the next half hour the police and security were all over the place. My aircraft left and I went to the security gate to leave, but was told I could not as the airport had been locked down. So my options were either a) There was a team of armed theives somewhere on the field or b) They had already left and the police were closing the stable door. Neither option was appealing and despite remonstrations to G4S I had an interminable and hungry wait airside in sub zero temperatures until the penny dropped and they let us off the apron..