FAA Grounds 787s
I am surprised that the speculation says just over the summer season. I have heard reasonable and sober sources stretch the dates out to the year's end. I do not have purview to venture an estimation but running it out twelve months would not surprise me.
Maybe reduced rates on 777s might fill the breach until the behind the wire reserve battalions can move forward. At least in the U.S. there are an innumerable number or 50 seat regional jets that can step up to do yeomen's duty. They nailed their flag on to the little frames that the passengers
Love...
I do think it will be fall before we see real possibilities for a flying test plan. Could be wrong. Lots of work to be done and the other countries will be watching closely.
Maybe reduced rates on 777s might fill the breach until the behind the wire reserve battalions can move forward. At least in the U.S. there are an innumerable number or 50 seat regional jets that can step up to do yeomen's duty. They nailed their flag on to the little frames that the passengers
Love...
I do think it will be fall before we see real possibilities for a flying test plan. Could be wrong. Lots of work to be done and the other countries will be watching closely.
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Perhaps somebody who knows could explain (or maybe I missed this) why it was so difficult to have another option open for the batt chemistry. Presumably they became committed to Li-Ion very early in the design? I somehow understood the structural aspect (design of EE bay layout, support structure...) but I find it hard to believe the associated risk was not considered. Regardless of what actually caused the incidents that led to the current situation.
JF, ''I'm not so sure about that.''
Indeed. How much damage was done to the public's perception of AB after AF's little mishap ? Suggest all forgotten in general public's mind. Last general disquiet was probably the DC-10 wasn't it ?
Indeed. How much damage was done to the public's perception of AB after AF's little mishap ? Suggest all forgotten in general public's mind. Last general disquiet was probably the DC-10 wasn't it ?
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Suggest all forgotten in general public's mind.
If it was ever there in the first place. I was talking to someone who flies almost as much as I do, about AF 447 and he had no idea what I was talking about.
but I find it hard to believe the associated risk was not considered.
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Hopefully someone with pertinent knowledge will jump in to offer an explanation for why a (hopefully) growing fleet of expensive aircraft would be allowed to remain grounded for months for want of an acceptable battery or two.
1. Corporate insanity?
2. Mountain of internal processes making the path forward glacial-speed?
3. Intense FAA review of certification found other serious non-battery concerns?
4. Battery charge/discharge electronics and software dispersed and tightly woven into the overall aircraft systems, making any change a vast undertaking?
5. Legal battles with suppliers?
6. ...?
Having spent a long career in military aerospace and watching the slide from personal responsibility to crowded meeting rooms deciding minor details, my personal guess would be (2), but since I had nothing to do with Boeing Commercial, please ignore me.
1. Corporate insanity?
2. Mountain of internal processes making the path forward glacial-speed?
3. Intense FAA review of certification found other serious non-battery concerns?
4. Battery charge/discharge electronics and software dispersed and tightly woven into the overall aircraft systems, making any change a vast undertaking?
5. Legal battles with suppliers?
6. ...?
Having spent a long career in military aerospace and watching the slide from personal responsibility to crowded meeting rooms deciding minor details, my personal guess would be (2), but since I had nothing to do with Boeing Commercial, please ignore me.
poorjohn:
This struck a chord with me:
Boeing's Real Problem With the Dreamliner: Bean Counter vs. Engineer - James Fallows - The Atlantic
That and complex outsourcing, with no single responsible individual having enough
technical oversight to maintain a big picture view seems quite likely to me...
Regards,
Chris
This struck a chord with me:
Boeing's Real Problem With the Dreamliner: Bean Counter vs. Engineer - James Fallows - The Atlantic
That and complex outsourcing, with no single responsible individual having enough
technical oversight to maintain a big picture view seems quite likely to me...
Regards,
Chris
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poorjohn:
Lots of that at Boeing (other large corporations too).
The culture there is to smack down anything that doesn't fit into the team philosophy. One would seriously risk their career by going off an testing their own hypothesis without consensus from the crowd. Its better to fit in than go off on one's own than to pursue some avenue of investigation, even if it had a reasonable probability of succeeding.
I'd suspect that Boeing has a Plan A/Plan B strategy in place. First, take a certain amount of time and resources to investigate the LiON technology and find a fix. Failing that, fall back to an already certified off the shelf battery system (probably NiCad). So now Plan A proceeds, but with everyone having an investment in the team plan and contributing to the consensus. God help the poor fool who grabs a battery, runs off to the lab and finds the solution on his or her own. As long as Plan B exists, why risk a career by playing cowboy?
watching the slide from personal responsibility to crowded meeting rooms deciding minor details,
The culture there is to smack down anything that doesn't fit into the team philosophy. One would seriously risk their career by going off an testing their own hypothesis without consensus from the crowd. Its better to fit in than go off on one's own than to pursue some avenue of investigation, even if it had a reasonable probability of succeeding.
I'd suspect that Boeing has a Plan A/Plan B strategy in place. First, take a certain amount of time and resources to investigate the LiON technology and find a fix. Failing that, fall back to an already certified off the shelf battery system (probably NiCad). So now Plan A proceeds, but with everyone having an investment in the team plan and contributing to the consensus. God help the poor fool who grabs a battery, runs off to the lab and finds the solution on his or her own. As long as Plan B exists, why risk a career by playing cowboy?
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crowded meeting rooms deciding minor details ...
Leaving aside national politics, if I were to tell you that Airbus does not have a committee / hierarchy culture I'd be spilling the beans on their success. Boeing knows that.
Airlines' Culpability
It's hard to understand why someone at one of the airlines interested in the 787 didn't question the use of these batteries to begin with. 
Are any 787s flying again even if its only for the purposes of a ferry flight?
Actually, I imagine if any have flown it would only be with essential crew. Just curious as I saw the Qatar Airways one at LHR with its anti collision beacon on yesterday. Could just be a maintenance check of course.
Actually, I imagine if any have flown it would only be with essential crew. Just curious as I saw the Qatar Airways one at LHR with its anti collision beacon on yesterday. Could just be a maintenance check of course.
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This AvWeek on-line article dated 2/15 - AvWeek article - apparently pre-dates the up-thread mention of a prolonged grounding
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At this point this thread needs to be moved to the Spectators group. The B741 was an extremely problematic aircraft yet is still one of the most successful aircraft in the sky. It shared the same new fears and awe.
The B741 was an extremely problematic aircraft yet is still one of the most successful aircraft in the sky. It shared the same new fears and awe.
It did have significant issues with the JT9D powerplant (most commonly by going slightly oval and abrading the seals). There were a number of in-flight shutdowns but it was a quad, and in all truth the shutdown rate was little different to what the 707/DC8 generation had experienced beforehand. Most JT9D issues were actually caught before departure, so there was some unreliability. It also had multiplex issues with its electrics. Of course, those were the days when aircraft were designed properly, so there were only cabin comfort items etc, not any critical features, using the multiplex. Boeing's designers in the late 1960s wouldn't have been so silly .......
Last edited by WHBM; 18th Feb 2013 at 11:47.
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Am I missing something in the recent links? There doesn't seem to be much reaction on this thread.
Is Boeing seriously proposing that passenger operation be permitted by the FAA, subject to nothing more than increased monitoring and containment of the consequences of batteries overheating?
Is Boeing seriously proposing that passenger operation be permitted by the FAA, subject to nothing more than increased monitoring and containment of the consequences of batteries overheating?
Last edited by Erwin Schroedinger; 18th Feb 2013 at 10:16.
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The B741 was an extremely problematic aircraft yet is still one of the most successful aircraft in the sky. It shared the same new fears and awe.
Regarding the article referenced by Girom,- a shower of tossers all trying to pass the buck for an enormous, unprecedented clusterfxxk .
Why the sudden kludge of putting it in a "tin" box with a drain-pipe over the side????....SURELY that was implicit in the original special certification conditions.
90 engineers to take 3 months to design a battery????...C'mon! what are they? high school students in a physics class? (the same shower that designed the present self-destruct system?
I'd call it dereliction of duty, professional malpractice and negligence if MY design-team had integrated a novel charger and battery-system without making sure that proven substitutes could be readily slotted in place.
pissup/brewery/ couldn't /organise... rearrange into a well-known saying and submit to Boeing shareholders.
Agree wholeheartedly with the last few posts by engineers...Boeings 787 pax are all in the boardroom.
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Production line conveyor belt continues. Interest times ahead in the parking lots.
787 Storage
787s stored on Runway 11-29 and the tower apron at Paine Field February 14, 2013. Let's see now, there are about fifteen parking spots left on airport property. Eight 787s on the Boeing ramp, probably six or more in the factory and five coming out every month. Hmm.
787 Storage
787s stored on Runway 11-29 and the tower apron at Paine Field February 14, 2013. Let's see now, there are about fifteen parking spots left on airport property. Eight 787s on the Boeing ramp, probably six or more in the factory and five coming out every month. Hmm.