Helicopter Crash Central London

[sky9]

Those cranes grow on a weekly basis, what's the date of the notam?

[A7700]

heli regulation

from UK CAA regulation for héli in EGLL CTR:
" ...pilots navigate by visual reference to ground features with only limited ATC Radar assistance...."

[parabatix]

Reported to be Diverting to Battersea.

[Illia]

St. George's Wharf Tower (according to Wikipedia) is supposed to be 594ft when complete, which suggests the crane jib (which seems to have been hit not far inboard of its far end) was vertical or inclined at the time. The photo on the Wikipedia page shows it in the vertical position where it clearly exceeds the height of the building by some distance.

[Pace]

Those cranes grow on a weekly basis, what's the date of the notam?

I do not fly Helicopters but know from flying aircraft visually how disorientating mist and fog can be especially as that fog and mist can change quickly in the course of hundreds of meters rather than miles.

I also wonder whether the notam system is best designed as giving an in a rush pilot reams of notams to read through does not always happen.

[Bam Thwok]

Possible altimeter error ??

With the temp around -3, unless corrected, there would have been an error of approx 10% to their altitude.
ie If your altimeter reading was 800ft....you would actually be 80ft lower in reality.

[jayteeto]

Heathrow radar is accurate enough to tell you that you are 100m off the route. Trust me, they told me!

[sky9]

From CAA document

"All helicopters flying in the zone are subject to an ATC clearance and in particular visibility minima."

What is that minima; and is the ATC clearance subject to that minima?

[Mikehotel152]

Yes, but missing a notam advising of a crane erected near an airport which doesn't effect approach minima is one thing, flying in amongst sky-scrapers at low level in mist and not having a clear idea of cranes is quite another. Not that I'm criticising these poor pilots, I'm just responding to Pace's post.

[astir 8]

Illia

that type of crane can't get the jib vertical. It's the angle of the crane relative to the photographer which makes it look so.

60 degrees would be about the normal working angle.

By definition a crane jib will always have to be higher than the building onto which it is lifting stuff

[Illia]

"Heathrow radar is accurate enough to tell you that you are 100m off the route. Trust me, they told me!"

Given that the crane's about 50m from the river that's not accurate enough to keep out of trouble here. Actually, on a wider point, given that helicopter route H4 (east of Battersea) is presumably bi-directional, how do you ensure separation of incoming and outgoing traffic? Is there a convention that you fly on the left hand side of the river? If so, you're even closer to the crane.

[FiveGirlKit]

@ Parabatix - "diverting to Battersea".

Why? Weather? Technical problem?

Where did this information come from?

[riverrock83]

Originally Posted by sky9

Those cranes grow on a weekly basis, what's the date of the notam?

Notam is dated from 7/1/2013 - 15/3/2013
However, I understand that the crane has been there for a long time (although it may well have grown as the building grew).

currently 11 confirmed casualties, one critically ill, and two confirmed fatalities.

Heliport at Battersea have got the RNLI looking for a helicopter they've lost contact with in the Thames. I presume this is normal procedure kicking in.

An RA(T) has been activated at the site.

[Pace]

Mike

If you take a mass of water like the thames surround that with frozen buildings and nil wind that is condusive to sporadic fog and low mist conditions.

The aviation expert quoted freezing fog and icing effecting helicopters yes if the aircraft is flying in that fog ie IFR and in IMC but I presume that very low level the pilot will be staying visual albeit at times with minimal visual reference and maybe pushed down in trying to maintain visual reference.
Very easy to miss an unlighted crane or one concealed in mist and low cloud.

[Flap 5]

I can not see how the pilot could have been legally VFR in those conditions of freezing fog with such poor visibility. You have to be VFR to fly in or around Battersea Heliport, unless the helicopter is twin engined, IFR equipped, with the pilot IFR qualified and flying above the minimum safe altitude. Battersea Heliport would not have an IFR approach for the pilot to descend below the MSA.

[jayteeto]

My god! Do you take everything so literally? What I am saying is that those people mentioning radar performance at those levels are wrong, it works just fine. Problem is, the controller isnt there to tell you to avoid towers, he is there to help aeroplanes land at heathrow. That means if you start to stray near his approach paths you will be told. That photo shows the crane to be VERY near the river. Under high workload (you are when single pilot at night in the lanes), it wouldnt take much to stray a little for ANY of us here, no matter how experienced.
PS. 32sqn and many many others fly 109

[cpaterson]

Helicopter pilot interviewed by the BBC: BBC News - 'Every helicopter pilot's nightmare'

[eltonioni]

I'm going to say it - scud running. (PPRuNe rumour rules applied)

The trouble is there's nowhere VFR to go once you're in there, without going up and IFR. What's the ceiling on the H corridor before Heathrow get interested?

[mixture]

The trouble is there's nowhere VFR to go once you're in there, without going up and IFR.

Desperate times = desperate measures..... you could always ditch into the thames (or onto a bridge ?).

But in all seriousness... I would think London IMC is not the place to be for an eggbeater, no matter the gadgets on board or the experience of the crew.

[Dg800]

Possible altimeter error ??

I would think that's a rather moot point. If you need an accurate altimeter reading in order to avoid impacting buildings then you have no business flying VFR there in the first place.