Air China 767 crashes in South Korea (April 2002)
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Pilot Error!
According to a Korean newspaper which interviewed the captain who survived the crash, Captain Woo, 32, had only 1 year of experience in a 767 as a captain.
Joongang Daily: "How many times have you flown to Kimhae-Pusan Airport?"
Captain Woo: "About 5 times."
Joongang Daily: "What do you think caused the accident?"
Captain Woo: ".................."
Joongang Daily: "Are you admitting that it was a pilot error?"
Captain Woo: "I am not sure."
--------------------------------------------
source: http://www.joins.com/society/200204/...014501451.html
Joongang Daily: "How many times have you flown to Kimhae-Pusan Airport?"
Captain Woo: "About 5 times."
Joongang Daily: "What do you think caused the accident?"
Captain Woo: ".................."
Joongang Daily: "Are you admitting that it was a pilot error?"
Captain Woo: "I am not sure."
--------------------------------------------
source: http://www.joins.com/society/200204/...014501451.html
Last edited by 747dreamer; 16th Apr 2002 at 03:11.
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Interesting reference in the front page item on this crash in today's SCMP:
"The final conversation between the pilot and the control tower indicates the cockpit was unaware of the looming disaster. An excerpt indicates that while the tower told the pilot to land on runway 36L, the plane was preparing to land on runway 18R."
"The final conversation between the pilot and the control tower indicates the cockpit was unaware of the looming disaster. An excerpt indicates that while the tower told the pilot to land on runway 36L, the plane was preparing to land on runway 18R."
Last edited by Alpha Leader; 16th Apr 2002 at 02:31.
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The Korean aviation authorities were advised by email on 31st March 2002 that at least one airline was busting circling weather minima at Busan. A description of the specific commercial pressures was given.
Insurance companies are welcome to contact me. Be prepared for extensive authentication. No investigative reporters will progress.
Insurance companies are welcome to contact me. Be prepared for extensive authentication. No investigative reporters will progress.
Last edited by autoflight; 16th Apr 2002 at 08:21.
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From a HK newspaper:
(1) The last transmission from the pilot: CCA129 on base turn on final.
(2) A/C crashed nose-up, perhaps suggesting that this is not a CFIT accident.
(3) Of the 54 survivors, 15 died en route or inside the hospital. (so that's 39 survivors)
(4) Capt. Woo Hsin Lu (Translated) did survive the crash.
IMHO what happened is that the pilot called missed while trying to land at 36L, turned into downwind for a 18R circling approach and crashed during the turn into final.
(1) The last transmission from the pilot: CCA129 on base turn on final.
(2) A/C crashed nose-up, perhaps suggesting that this is not a CFIT accident.
(3) Of the 54 survivors, 15 died en route or inside the hospital. (so that's 39 survivors)
(4) Capt. Woo Hsin Lu (Translated) did survive the crash.
IMHO what happened is that the pilot called missed while trying to land at 36L, turned into downwind for a 18R circling approach and crashed during the turn into final.
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I think the root cause of the problem might be the fact that this appears to have been a single-pilot operation. I can't imagine how dificult it must be to safely and efficiently fly a Boeing 767-200 in the soup with only one peep in the flight deck.
Maybe Air China need to recruit some more drivers, because this is pretty desperate if you ask me?
(I'm personally getting sick and fuc*ing tired of reference only being made to the skipper, whilst the f/o's final resting place is probably a grease spot up a tree)
Maybe Air China need to recruit some more drivers, because this is pretty desperate if you ask me?
(I'm personally getting sick and fuc*ing tired of reference only being made to the skipper, whilst the f/o's final resting place is probably a grease spot up a tree)
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Like any other threads related to crashes of Asian carriers, this thread has degraded to show the classic Asian can't fly attitude, and drawing to a conclusion even before the investigation has begun.
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Here's an ad that they'll tear down in a few days.....
Flying Clog:
Don't blame everything on the pilots. The ATC should never issue a non-instrument landing clearance at those kind of conditions, as the airport is near very mountainous terrain.
P.S. Air China has 1300+ pilots, almost all came from the Air Force. (No crashes from 1988 till now is quite a miracle compared to Korean Air and China Airlines.)
Flying Clog:
Don't blame everything on the pilots. The ATC should never issue a non-instrument landing clearance at those kind of conditions, as the airport is near very mountainous terrain.
P.S. Air China has 1300+ pilots, almost all came from the Air Force. (No crashes from 1988 till now is quite a miracle compared to Korean Air and China Airlines.)
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RKPK 150200Z 22007KT 3200 -RA BR SCT005 BKN010
Light Rain, mist, scattered 500 ft broken 1000 ft.... anyone know what the circling minima is? At first glance, the combination of low cloud bases + rain & mist + close-in terrain + non-precision approach does seem to be stacking the odds against yourself. How often do ATC require this at domestic airports in Korea? Granted you don't have to accept a clearance for any runway, but i'm interested in how often ATC do this in marginal conditions. And don't tell me the choice of runway was anything to do with noise abatement!
Light Rain, mist, scattered 500 ft broken 1000 ft.... anyone know what the circling minima is? At first glance, the combination of low cloud bases + rain & mist + close-in terrain + non-precision approach does seem to be stacking the odds against yourself. How often do ATC require this at domestic airports in Korea? Granted you don't have to accept a clearance for any runway, but i'm interested in how often ATC do this in marginal conditions. And don't tell me the choice of runway was anything to do with noise abatement!
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Several of the previous posts are in error and only serve to highlight the ignorance of the writers involved.
Air China has indeed enjoyed an unblemished record for more than 40 years. It is a credible airline.
We in the western world thought of CAAC as a monolithic organisation and didn't understand (or want to understand) the true structure of it. It was always divided into regions or divisions. The Beijing Division of CAAC became Air China - just as the Shanghai Division became China Eastern and the Guangdong Division became China Southern, etc. The Beijing Division of CAAC, latterly known as Air China, had NEVER (until the other day) had a fatal accident.
I am appalled by the alacrity with which some of you have put racial overtones on this accident. As I have seen done before on PPRuNe. This is not an accident involving a fly-by-night airline. It is not an accident involving a small aircraft.
It is an accident involving a flag-carrier. It is an accident involving a wide-body aircraft - and we should treat the Company and the Crew (our colleagues) accordingly.
Until the Official Accident Investigation has been published we should have the professional and moral integrity to keep our speculations to a minimum as well as on a respectful level.
I am certain Air China, as a Company, will be devastated by this accident. For sure the surviving crew will suffer forever.
Have some sympathy, compassion and pity - those of you with racist minds, fast tongues and heartless souls.
Air China has indeed enjoyed an unblemished record for more than 40 years. It is a credible airline.
We in the western world thought of CAAC as a monolithic organisation and didn't understand (or want to understand) the true structure of it. It was always divided into regions or divisions. The Beijing Division of CAAC became Air China - just as the Shanghai Division became China Eastern and the Guangdong Division became China Southern, etc. The Beijing Division of CAAC, latterly known as Air China, had NEVER (until the other day) had a fatal accident.
I am appalled by the alacrity with which some of you have put racial overtones on this accident. As I have seen done before on PPRuNe. This is not an accident involving a fly-by-night airline. It is not an accident involving a small aircraft.
It is an accident involving a flag-carrier. It is an accident involving a wide-body aircraft - and we should treat the Company and the Crew (our colleagues) accordingly.
Until the Official Accident Investigation has been published we should have the professional and moral integrity to keep our speculations to a minimum as well as on a respectful level.
I am certain Air China, as a Company, will be devastated by this accident. For sure the surviving crew will suffer forever.
Have some sympathy, compassion and pity - those of you with racist minds, fast tongues and heartless souls.
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My local rag has an article about a 42 year old professor, (a passenger on the ill-fated flight), calling his travel agent (!) on his mobile phone to tell him the aircraft was about to crash, and then calling the airline after the crash, again on his trusty mobile.
It would be very interesting to ascertain whether the use of the mobile while the pilots were attempting to carry out a BWC in marginal conditions might have had any effect on the aircraft’s navigational systems – as we, (and I assume Air China), warn our passengers before every flight.
It would be very interesting to ascertain whether the use of the mobile while the pilots were attempting to carry out a BWC in marginal conditions might have had any effect on the aircraft’s navigational systems – as we, (and I assume Air China), warn our passengers before every flight.
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Yes, I read that too. Interesting how he, sitting in the cabin, was aware of the impending disaster in sufficient time to make a phone call. If he was so aware, a pity he didn't think of warning the pilots. In fact, its a shame he wasn't flying the aircraft himself. If he could foresee the accident from his seat, no doubt he could easily have averted it, had he been at the controls.
What idiots write this kind of bullsh*t?
What idiots write this kind of bullsh*t?
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Approach Charts
JR_wilco,
There are some "copied" Jeppesen charts on this site:
http://www.letsfly.pe.kr/default2.htm
you need to look for Kimhae, rather than Pusan.
There are some "copied" Jeppesen charts on this site:
http://www.letsfly.pe.kr/default2.htm
you need to look for Kimhae, rather than Pusan.
1000' Contour 4 Miles North
The radar chart shows a 1000' contour 4 miles North of the threshold.
The cat D circling limit (max 165 kt.) has minima of 1100' AGL and 3 miles.
And the spot height not quite 5 miles North is 2067'.
The cat D circling limit (max 165 kt.) has minima of 1100' AGL and 3 miles.
And the spot height not quite 5 miles North is 2067'.
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One thing that screams out at all of us is that it is non-precision approaches that cause the problems. We have to do them in the sim, but obviously not enough, judging by the accident statistics involving them.
When one considers how much attention is paid to AWOPS in the sim, and how few incidents have involved them, it makes me think that we really should work a little harder at getting better at non-precision approaches, and also circlings (as these are often done in marginal conditions).
Any training management reading, please take note.
When one considers how much attention is paid to AWOPS in the sim, and how few incidents have involved them, it makes me think that we really should work a little harder at getting better at non-precision approaches, and also circlings (as these are often done in marginal conditions).
Any training management reading, please take note.
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Wiley: you'd be surprised to see the local version of "flight safety". Chatting on mobile phones is only one of the favourite pastimes. Another is nearly all passengers on the left side of the a/c getting up and rushing over to look out of over the right wing at the beautiful scenery while on final approach to Hangzhou.
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It is quite correct to say that Air China is telling a porky about it's safety record.
The racial overtones are completely justified, when discussing this accident. It is a fact that Asian airlines have a terrible safety record. This is largely due to 1/ Jobs for people regardless of merit and 2/ The cultural problems arising from "loss of face" and being too deferential to authority.
As someone with lots of experience in the regions airlines, I can assure you looking good is much more important that being good at your job, in Asia.
The racial overtones are completely justified, when discussing this accident. It is a fact that Asian airlines have a terrible safety record. This is largely due to 1/ Jobs for people regardless of merit and 2/ The cultural problems arising from "loss of face" and being too deferential to authority.
As someone with lots of experience in the regions airlines, I can assure you looking good is much more important that being good at your job, in Asia.
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Recently heard in Frankfurt:
Frankfurt, Air China XXX, request clearance, spot B48, information Lima"
"Air China XXX cleared to Beijing Warburg 9G squawk XXXX"
Frankfurt, Air China XXX, cannot accept clearance, request runway 18 for departure"
"Air China, runway 25R is in use for departures, you want 18?
Frankfurt, Air China XXX, Warburg 9G departure not in our [FMC] database, request runway 18 departure"
Understood, Air China cleared Warburg 3S [runway 18] squawk XXXX..."
The poor man was clearly lost without a magenta line to follow after takeoff.
Frankfurt, Air China XXX, request clearance, spot B48, information Lima"
"Air China XXX cleared to Beijing Warburg 9G squawk XXXX"
Frankfurt, Air China XXX, cannot accept clearance, request runway 18 for departure"
"Air China, runway 25R is in use for departures, you want 18?
Frankfurt, Air China XXX, Warburg 9G departure not in our [FMC] database, request runway 18 departure"
Understood, Air China cleared Warburg 3S [runway 18] squawk XXXX..."
The poor man was clearly lost without a magenta line to follow after takeoff.