Ryanair, too low on..
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Ryr too low
@ FLR-PSA : very nice way of narrating things ! I much appreciate your sense of humour ..... By the way, do you know whether these pilots are still with Ryr or ... probably fired by HMS "M.O.L." ????
Ryanair deserves a new name | Carole Cadwalladr | Comment is free | The Observer
with court cases in Marseilles and Spain (and probably somewhere else...) regarding labour laws, and the press (see above) in every european country against them, no surprise they are getting nervous... you even read about them in sailing forums since yachties are using air transport to commute to their craft and never in good terms. Can't be good and I must say, they deserve this bad publicity, even if I feel sorry for the Ryanair employees...
with court cases in Marseilles and Spain (and probably somewhere else...) regarding labour laws, and the press (see above) in every european country against them, no surprise they are getting nervous... you even read about them in sailing forums since yachties are using air transport to commute to their craft and never in good terms. Can't be good and I must say, they deserve this bad publicity, even if I feel sorry for the Ryanair employees...
Union des navigants de l'aviation civile (Unac) Syndicat national des pilotes de ligne (SNPL) versus Ryanair in Marseille.
It's ok to keep cool and go around when things are hotting up for Ryanir but on top of the questions and concerns for security, bad consummer relations, appalling staff consideration, what are the consequences of this air line's actions regarding labour laws (estimated prejudice to french social security 4,5 millions Euro... in Aix en Provence Court case alone...) in France, Spain, Germany and Italy... You can afford to be cheap if you cheat... without mentioning the crooked competition with airlines that complies and find themselves short of a few bucks...
I am fed up with all these people playing the same game with different rules. Hope Ryanair goes bankrupt SOON.
It's ok to keep cool and go around when things are hotting up for Ryanir but on top of the questions and concerns for security, bad consummer relations, appalling staff consideration, what are the consequences of this air line's actions regarding labour laws (estimated prejudice to french social security 4,5 millions Euro... in Aix en Provence Court case alone...) in France, Spain, Germany and Italy... You can afford to be cheap if you cheat... without mentioning the crooked competition with airlines that complies and find themselves short of a few bucks...
I am fed up with all these people playing the same game with different rules. Hope Ryanair goes bankrupt SOON.
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Bankrupt!!
I respectfully suggest that, multiple accidents aside, Ryanair will be one of the world's last four airlines flying.
Along with Easyjet, Vatican Airways and Air Force One.
I respectfully suggest that, multiple accidents aside, Ryanair will be one of the world's last four airlines flying.
Along with Easyjet, Vatican Airways and Air Force One.
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
Hope they don't go bust. They're the only airline that flies from where I live to where I want to go at a price I can afford. Twenty years ago the cost made it a once-a-year trip, now it's several times. Lots of people here slag off RYR without knowing anything about them ("I would never fly with such an airline"). Yes, this was a bad approach and, yes, it needs sorting, but the actual airline involved is irrelevant. Before anyone asks, I don't work for them, I don't hold shares and I don't like M O'L, but the airline is fine.
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"Pretty obvious to me they weren't doing an ILS, nor had a LNAV route in the box. It was a Visual Approach via a wide right base, so none of the above (capturing) would be expected."
At the time of the briefing some 150nm before I'm sure an LS would have been discussed and the STAR + ILS inserted in 'the box'. Therefore there would have been a VNAV path in the FMC and its data being displayed at all times on the ND no matter what pages were displayed on the CDU. Surely, even when performing a visual to an ILS the Nav Aids would have beens selected and surely APP armed? The "glide slope" caution must have shouted at them many times. These aids would have been tuned and identified long before they started this manoeuvre. The gate where they entered this roller coaster was a wide base leg. I suspect the captain was blind to the RWY for much of base leg; but he might have had the rwy insight when requesting the visual; one hopes so. However he then flew into a blind spot. I wonder what help was given from RHS about the visual profile. It is still the case that instead of turning in all the data was screaming to turn out for a bit. Once agin all the time hoping to be gained was lost, or worse. As with Cali; it is better to be 5 minutes late than 20 years too early.
At the time of the briefing some 150nm before I'm sure an LS would have been discussed and the STAR + ILS inserted in 'the box'. Therefore there would have been a VNAV path in the FMC and its data being displayed at all times on the ND no matter what pages were displayed on the CDU. Surely, even when performing a visual to an ILS the Nav Aids would have beens selected and surely APP armed? The "glide slope" caution must have shouted at them many times. These aids would have been tuned and identified long before they started this manoeuvre. The gate where they entered this roller coaster was a wide base leg. I suspect the captain was blind to the RWY for much of base leg; but he might have had the rwy insight when requesting the visual; one hopes so. However he then flew into a blind spot. I wonder what help was given from RHS about the visual profile. It is still the case that instead of turning in all the data was screaming to turn out for a bit. Once agin all the time hoping to be gained was lost, or worse. As with Cali; it is better to be 5 minutes late than 20 years too early.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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I R P - give us the links and we can discuss?
I fail to see why all the attention from RY and others is on how/when the g/a was conducted. Surely if we are to dissect this serious incident it has to be as Rat5 says - what was the ILS displaying and how on earth could they arrive at what appears to be 553'ATE at 4 miles from said threshold going down at 1740fpm AND have the runway in sight? It must have been somewhere near the top of their windscreens and any PAPI/VASIs tinged a trifle red. Again, crew interaction is questionable.
Can we expect RY's PR dept to address this, the more important question? Even if AvHerald got the detail of the g/a wrong (I have not had time to cross-refer the BFU report to AvHerald's) is this not what the travelling public need to know?
I fail to see why all the attention from RY and others is on how/when the g/a was conducted. Surely if we are to dissect this serious incident it has to be as Rat5 says - what was the ILS displaying and how on earth could they arrive at what appears to be 553'ATE at 4 miles from said threshold going down at 1740fpm AND have the runway in sight? It must have been somewhere near the top of their windscreens and any PAPI/VASIs tinged a trifle red. Again, crew interaction is questionable.
Can we expect RY's PR dept to address this, the more important question? Even if AvHerald got the detail of the g/a wrong (I have not had time to cross-refer the BFU report to AvHerald's) is this not what the travelling public need to know?
.
At the same time there is talk of a BA flight going around after touchdown in Nice...
What say the populace now?
What say the populace now?
Nobody is arguing that a GA of itself necessitates any finger-pointing - go to a large airport like LHR and you will see at least one a day, on average.
So it's all about the circumstances that led to the GA, not just the fact that it happened. Unless you have information on the sequence of events that occurred at Nice, assuming what you have heard is correct, then there's not much point in raising it.
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@ FLR-PSA : very nice way of narrating things ! I much appreciate your sense of humour ..... By the way, do you know whether these pilots are still with Ryr or ... probably fired by HMS "M.O.L." ????
Anyway, in answer to your question yes, these 2 pilots are still with the airline. They were invited over to see the boss. The receptionist took €60 off each of them to print out their visitors badge (they forgot to print it at home, idiots) and showed them to the office. As soon as the office door opened they ran to get the best seats because they hadn’t purchased a“priority bollocking”. Each put €3 in his personal vending machine and pressed the “Tea and Biscuits” option. They were congratulated for getting down to 450 and emptying the poo tanks before landing, making up time and opening up a brand new revenue stream. The airline now plan to roll out threatening legal action across the entire network and hope by 2014 to sue over 1,000 IP addresses for defamation. They duly thanked the boss, collected their contract pilot of the month award and deadheaded back to Florence, or Pisa as they call it.
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You are assuming the FD's were switched OFF. I doubt that especially as the A/P was still in CMD, but not control. The pilot was in control of the A/P, but perhaps not the a/c. Are you saying that executing a visual approach onto an ILS (which you will surely capture before the landing gate) it is not a good idea to keep the FD's ON, look through them if necessary and then allow them to capture the approach in the final stages? It is not necessary as the raw data pointers would be visible, but it is not a requirement not use all facilities just because you are making a visual approach.
why would APP be armed during a visual approach?
(edit to add: "RAT" beat me to it)
Last edited by wiggy; 7th Dec 2012 at 10:56.
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A visual approach "backed up" by ILS raw data might be a very good idea if there is any chance of misidentifying the landing threshold.
You may want to opt for a visual approach in order to reduce track miles or to assist the approach controller if busy even if the intention is to use the ILS.
You may want to opt for a visual approach in order to reduce track miles or to assist the approach controller if busy even if the intention is to use the ILS.
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Yeah, right
It could have been a case of some sort of automation problem or fackup, followed by the real fackup, the two guys heads down trying to sort it out with the airplane sinking at over 2,500 fpm.
that could explain the very low height at that distance from the runway and the high sink rates. I don't understand how a crew seeing what is going on keeps it going until they manage to stop the sink with a buffer of less than 500 ft to terrain.
The GPWS warning, was it conventional or EGPWS?
It could have been a case of some sort of automation problem or fackup, followed by the real fackup, the two guys heads down trying to sort it out with the airplane sinking at over 2,500 fpm.
that could explain the very low height at that distance from the runway and the high sink rates. I don't understand how a crew seeing what is going on keeps it going until they manage to stop the sink with a buffer of less than 500 ft to terrain.
The GPWS warning, was it conventional or EGPWS?
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This is a classic case of poor judgement followed by presonitis. The mere fact that this aeroplane was being flown on the automatics after the pilots accepted a visual approach suggested that they were both out of their depth as soon as they elected to go it alone. They were in no way prepared to accept this clearance. They opted to fly a visual manoeuvre through the autopilot and ended up hanging on to the tail of their aircraft.
This business of taking a visual clearance and then half heartedly flying it with the autopilot or flight director is nonsense. If you haven't the confidence to fly the aircraft with your own hands then take radar vectors.
This business of taking a visual clearance and then half heartedly flying it with the autopilot or flight director is nonsense. If you haven't the confidence to fly the aircraft with your own hands then take radar vectors.
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visual approach with A/P...
obviously did not happen in this case,
but some "preaching" about various transgressions of F/D usage are perhaps personal preferences.
makes perfect sense to me.
of course brain must remain engaged.
several times, i have been able to cut significant distance out of a full procedure by asking for a visual approach and using the A/P to manoeuvre the aircraft to intercept the loc and glide on final approach.
it is not rocket science but again, brain must remained engaged and some distance ahead of the aircraft and situational awareness must be present as well.
FD's, A/T's, A/P's, LOC's and G/S's can be useful tools but pilot must be smarter than the tools he or she is using.
but some "preaching" about various transgressions of F/D usage are perhaps personal preferences.
makes perfect sense to me.
of course brain must remain engaged.
several times, i have been able to cut significant distance out of a full procedure by asking for a visual approach and using the A/P to manoeuvre the aircraft to intercept the loc and glide on final approach.
it is not rocket science but again, brain must remained engaged and some distance ahead of the aircraft and situational awareness must be present as well.
FD's, A/T's, A/P's, LOC's and G/S's can be useful tools but pilot must be smarter than the tools he or she is using.