BCN again...
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Visual is looking out the window but...
I also agree that visual is looking out the window but even so the Aerolineas could have mistaken the Easy by the Iberia. So the ATC should have have been very specific on what was the order for landing.
Probably it's the economic crisis that we in Europe are living that everybody starts shooting each other for peanuts. Relax, this is just a rumour network.
Probably it's the economic crisis that we in Europe are living that everybody starts shooting each other for peanuts. Relax, this is just a rumour network.
Ut Sementem Feeceris
I had exactly the scenario CallsignK describes last time I went into BCN. Told to keep 180 knots by APP (TCAS contact showing about 2.5 - 3D ahead...) on hand over tower immediately instructed to reduce to minimum due preceding 
Landing clearance at 100'..... absolutely zero coordination between APP and TWR with inappropriate "ambitious" vectoring.
@Icelanta
Can you give some examples of UK ATC phraseology which is so non standard as to be dangerous please. Genuine question. The main difference I can think of is "behind the landing...... Line up behind" which is used throughout Europe except the UK.
Landing clearance at 100'..... absolutely zero coordination between APP and TWR with inappropriate "ambitious" vectoring.@Icelanta
Can you give some examples of UK ATC phraseology which is so non standard as to be dangerous please. Genuine question. The main difference I can think of is "behind the landing...... Line up behind" which is used throughout Europe except the UK.
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In aviation, where English should be the universal language, why would ATC comms need to be translated? When will the Spanish move to all English comms? .
I didn´t justify ATC comms in spanish .I just tried to express that as all comms were in spanish you better be sure what they`d said before blaming anybody.
Icelanta
I completely agree
I didn´t justify ATC comms in spanish .I just tried to express that as all comms were in spanish you better be sure what they`d said before blaming anybody.
Icelanta
I completely agree
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I also agree that visual is looking out the window but even so the Aerolineas could have mistaken the Easy by the Iberia. So the ATC should have have been very specific on what was the order for landing.
That was exactly the problem.ATC gave them the position of the precedent (10 o´clock-7 nm) and they pay no attention and adjust to the Easyjet.
That was exactly the problem.ATC gave them the position of the precedent (10 o´clock-7 nm) and they pay no attention and adjust to the Easyjet.
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Only in the UK:
Iceair123 turn right heading 020 DEGREES this is absolute bull****. Either you turn into a heading, or you turn an amount of degrees. When combining two phraseologies, you are asking for misunderstandings resulting in a reduction of safety. It is either turn right Heading 020 or it is turn right 020 degrees. Follow bloody ICAO.
Iceair123, when established on the localiser, descend with the glide
Absolute bull again, you are either cleared ILS or not cleared ILS. again, the Brits are making things complicated where it is not necessary, and where the whole rest of the World follows ICAO.
This Again creates confusion, especially to non native speakers. but hey, the Brits do not care, the vast majority only know English anyway and have no idea what speaking and understanding a foreign language is...
So I stand by my claim that in Europe, the UK has the worst phraseology, but it must be said, terrific controllers.
Iceair123 turn right heading 020 DEGREES this is absolute bull****. Either you turn into a heading, or you turn an amount of degrees. When combining two phraseologies, you are asking for misunderstandings resulting in a reduction of safety. It is either turn right Heading 020 or it is turn right 020 degrees. Follow bloody ICAO.
Iceair123, when established on the localiser, descend with the glide
Absolute bull again, you are either cleared ILS or not cleared ILS. again, the Brits are making things complicated where it is not necessary, and where the whole rest of the World follows ICAO.
This Again creates confusion, especially to non native speakers. but hey, the Brits do not care, the vast majority only know English anyway and have no idea what speaking and understanding a foreign language is...
So I stand by my claim that in Europe, the UK has the worst phraseology, but it must be said, terrific controllers.
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Whilst I am not a fan of thread creep, Icelanta can not be allowed to be so supercilious... How a heading of 'turn right 020 degrees' can be confused with an instruction to turn right by an amount of 20 degrees is disengenious as the call would be 'turn right 20 degrees' NOT 020 degrees.
I am glad you acknowledge our ATC colleagues are the best there is though
I am glad you acknowledge our ATC colleagues are the best there is though
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Had to go around at BCN not that long ago due to being vectored so close to aircraft ahead that we had no hope of getting clearance to land. They subsequently vectored us around for another approach only to do the same thing again. When I complained they said 'we are having trouble vectoring aircraft this evening!!!!!!'
Always carry a bit of extra gas in to BCN, just in case
. When I complained they said 'we are having trouble vectoring aircraft this evening!!!!!!'Always carry a bit of extra gas in to BCN, just in case
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Accident waiting to happen... BCN
Not only in the air is there real collision danger at BCN.
Just have a look at page 10-9 of the Jeppesen Charts (airport layout and taxiways) and count the number of Runway Incursion Hotspots. HS2 is actually so big it covers 11 different junctions/holding points!
Add to this the confusing layout of taxiways and cross runways, plus four separate ground frequencies and the addition of non-standard R/T, often in the national language...
Now imagine the scene with Low Visibility Procedures in force? It is bound to happen sooner or later, a major collision on the ground between airliners in poor visibility.
BCN should be classified as a CAT C airport and the points made by previous reporters regarding ATC loss of SA are well made.
We all need to be more careful when operating at this airport even in good WX.
Just have a look at page 10-9 of the Jeppesen Charts (airport layout and taxiways) and count the number of Runway Incursion Hotspots. HS2 is actually so big it covers 11 different junctions/holding points!
Add to this the confusing layout of taxiways and cross runways, plus four separate ground frequencies and the addition of non-standard R/T, often in the national language...
Now imagine the scene with Low Visibility Procedures in force? It is bound to happen sooner or later, a major collision on the ground between airliners in poor visibility.
BCN should be classified as a CAT C airport and the points made by previous reporters regarding ATC loss of SA are well made.
We all need to be more careful when operating at this airport even in good WX.
Last edited by Howard Johnson; 14th Nov 2012 at 06:28.
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Barcelona is equipped with radar right? Why clear a four engine heavy with hundreds of people onboard to arrange his own separation from 2 other aircraft? Sounds at best lazy. What would be wrong with proper vectoring in this scenario?
Every time I hear people respond to a traffic report with "we have him on TCAS", I do wonder what they are saying exactly. I don't see the relevance of that statement.
But then I similarly get irritated by "Down 200" and "squawk coming down". Maybe I need a holiday...
Every time I hear people respond to a traffic report with "we have him on TCAS", I do wonder what they are saying exactly. I don't see the relevance of that statement.
But then I similarly get irritated by "Down 200" and "squawk coming down". Maybe I need a holiday...
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@Howard Johnson
Which national language can you tell me?
Please don't tell me Catalan
Aside from Vueling most of the other big players at the airport will certainly not have Spanish, let alone Catalan, as their principal language.
EZ, RYR etc..
There are flights from several U.S. airlines and many more besides
Given the numbers of non Spanish speaking airlines now basing a lot of flights out of BCN not speaking the international language of aviation is inexcusable.
Put it this way, would Cardiff airport be speaking Welsh?
Which national language can you tell me?
Please don't tell me Catalan
Aside from Vueling most of the other big players at the airport will certainly not have Spanish, let alone Catalan, as their principal language.
EZ, RYR etc..
There are flights from several U.S. airlines and many more besides
Given the numbers of non Spanish speaking airlines now basing a lot of flights out of BCN not speaking the international language of aviation is inexcusable.
Put it this way, would Cardiff airport be speaking Welsh?
Icelanta,
As Legs points put, your complaint about heading instructions is unreasonable. The only non-ICAO bit in UK phraseology is the use of the word 'degrees' when giving a specific heading that ends on a zero. I like it. It avoids confusion with cleared FLs.
And the instruction to descend on the glide once established on the localiser is given when on radar vectors and is presumably intended to ensure you do not descend below the cleared altitude until established on the localiser, i.e. capturing the glide in the protected area. How is that dangerous or annoying even if non-ICAO?
As Legs points put, your complaint about heading instructions is unreasonable. The only non-ICAO bit in UK phraseology is the use of the word 'degrees' when giving a specific heading that ends on a zero. I like it. It avoids confusion with cleared FLs.
And the instruction to descend on the glide once established on the localiser is given when on radar vectors and is presumably intended to ensure you do not descend below the cleared altitude until established on the localiser, i.e. capturing the glide in the protected area. How is that dangerous or annoying even if non-ICAO?
Plumbum Pendular
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There is a marked difference between being cleared for the ILS and once established on the localiser descend with the glide.
If you don't know the difference then maybe flying isn't for you! The former allows you to descend with the procedure, the latter doesn't. Therefore ATC still have control of your level until you start going down with the glide.
The terminology is in fact "turn right HEADING 020 degrees" not "turn right 020 degrees".
So Icelanta I would suggest checking your facts before you comments.
If you don't know the difference then maybe flying isn't for you! The former allows you to descend with the procedure, the latter doesn't. Therefore ATC still have control of your level until you start going down with the glide.
The terminology is in fact "turn right HEADING 020 degrees" not "turn right 020 degrees".
So Icelanta I would suggest checking your facts before you comments.
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Every time I hear people respond to a traffic report with "we have him on TCAS", I do wonder what they are saying exactly. I don't see the relevance of that statement.
Probably the same muppets who "stand-by for descent".... (And they tend to be of a native-speaking northern variety, giving lie to the belief that native speakers are any better than others at standard phraseology).
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I think this incident provides a perfect example of the dangers of volunteering that you are "visual" with another aircraft in an IFR environment.
By doing this you are risking exactly what may have happened here, a "clearance" - which is effectively "at your discretion" - to carry out a VFR procedure based on your assumption that your identification is correct. Using TCAS as an identification aid is even more hazardous imho than a controller's description (left 11 o'clock 3 miles) because he will - should - only give that if there is nothing else there that you might confuse it with while with TCAS you cannot be sure whether what you are looking at is the proximate traffic or one that TCAS is not showing. TCAS just isn't that accurate on bearings anyway, doing this is using it for a purpose it was never designed nor intended for, so DON'T!
I am never happy with confirming self-identified traffic to ATC - sure, look and see if you think you can see it but I never tell ATC I've identified it cos how can I be sure? That's his job. The word "controller" gives the clue. It is not our place to take responsibility for separation in an IFR environment, nor should they expect or encourage us to. Flying club procedures at an international airport are just going to end in tears.
imho it is a practice to be avoided completely.
And to do this at BCN of all places - with their shonky standards - madness.
Not, for once, blaming Spanish ATC entirely here, but their standards are generally pretty appalling and before too long are going to result in a heavy body-count. That much is a racing certainty.
Be careful out there!
By doing this you are risking exactly what may have happened here, a "clearance" - which is effectively "at your discretion" - to carry out a VFR procedure based on your assumption that your identification is correct. Using TCAS as an identification aid is even more hazardous imho than a controller's description (left 11 o'clock 3 miles) because he will - should - only give that if there is nothing else there that you might confuse it with while with TCAS you cannot be sure whether what you are looking at is the proximate traffic or one that TCAS is not showing. TCAS just isn't that accurate on bearings anyway, doing this is using it for a purpose it was never designed nor intended for, so DON'T!
I am never happy with confirming self-identified traffic to ATC - sure, look and see if you think you can see it but I never tell ATC I've identified it cos how can I be sure? That's his job. The word "controller" gives the clue. It is not our place to take responsibility for separation in an IFR environment, nor should they expect or encourage us to. Flying club procedures at an international airport are just going to end in tears.
imho it is a practice to be avoided completely.
And to do this at BCN of all places - with their shonky standards - madness.
Not, for once, blaming Spanish ATC entirely here, but their standards are generally pretty appalling and before too long are going to result in a heavy body-count. That much is a racing certainty.
Be careful out there!
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When you say that you're visual with the traffic, means exactly that. It means that you see the traffic (not on TCAS), it doesn't mean that you are canceling IFR. ATC still is responsible for traffic separation. Usually there is this confusion among pilots and ATC. Unless you ask to cancel it or the controller asks you if you can maintain own separation, you're still on an IFR flight plan although in VMC.
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Most people regard UK ATC as being pretty good, if not the best around
The best in Europe are the Dutch, hands down. AMS in rush hour - thats brilliant ATC for you.
Given the numbers of non Spanish speaking airlines now basing a lot of flights out of BCN not speaking the international language of aviation is inexcusable.
English is the Official Language of Aviation...
In aviation, where English should be the universal language, why would ATC comms need to be translated? When will the Spanish move to all English comms?
Get away with your ignorance and learn a little bit of English.
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If we are going to discuss non-standard phraseology I offer the fairly common Spanish (and the Dutch have been known to use it too) "Flight Level Zero Eight Zero"
Zero eight zero is a heading, and is most definitely NOT a level. Not only can it be confused with a heading, but it offers the possibility of confusing it with Two eight zero / One eight zero (which I have heard readback & not corrected by ATC until I interjected.)
Flight Level Eight Zero is clear & unequivocal.
Only mystery here is how (like the Lan Chile flameout diverting from MAD to VLC) the Spanish Govt will manage to blame Ryanair for this one
Edited to say, have to disagree with your assessment of AMS ATC. . #1, because they speak pretty good English, they speak it too fast & even a native speaker will sometimes struggle to get everything 1st time when combined with that tiny Dutch accent #2 , they do sometimes try to be just a little "too" clever (CPH are guilty of this too) as evinced by the beginning of the Turkish accident .
Zero eight zero is a heading, and is most definitely NOT a level. Not only can it be confused with a heading, but it offers the possibility of confusing it with Two eight zero / One eight zero (which I have heard readback & not corrected by ATC until I interjected.)
Flight Level Eight Zero is clear & unequivocal.
Only mystery here is how (like the Lan Chile flameout diverting from MAD to VLC) the Spanish Govt will manage to blame Ryanair for this one
Edited to say, have to disagree with your assessment of AMS ATC. . #1, because they speak pretty good English, they speak it too fast & even a native speaker will sometimes struggle to get everything 1st time when combined with that tiny Dutch accent #2 , they do sometimes try to be just a little "too" clever (CPH are guilty of this too) as evinced by the beginning of the Turkish accident .
Last edited by captplaystation; 14th Nov 2012 at 12:47.
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'Well as far as I know, Spanish is an official ICAO language. Whilst an all english enviroment would be desirable, the poor atco might have to speak spanish if spoken to by the pilot ?'
Yes, I think we all accept that - my bold.
However I lay a bet that the vast majority of flights at BCN have non Spanish speaking pilots; aside from Vueling no other sizeable Spanish airline has its hub there.
Plus, what language are Spanish pilots talked to when they venture abroad, Spanish? I think not.
Of interest as regards attitudes are the signs in the terminals at BCN language wise:
1/. Catalan
2/. English
3/. Spanish
Yes, I think we all accept that - my bold.
However I lay a bet that the vast majority of flights at BCN have non Spanish speaking pilots; aside from Vueling no other sizeable Spanish airline has its hub there.
Plus, what language are Spanish pilots talked to when they venture abroad, Spanish? I think not.
Of interest as regards attitudes are the signs in the terminals at BCN language wise:
1/. Catalan
2/. English
3/. Spanish
Last edited by gcal; 14th Nov 2012 at 12:57.
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degrees
if nothing else it uses precious radio time. "turn right heading zero two zero" is all you need. do you turn to a flight level? to a speed? what else are you gonna turn to? the extra word 'degrees' is not necessary. if they say reduce to two one zero, does that mean descend to FL 210??? reduce heading to 210 degres? where exactly is the confusion?
Last edited by bigjames; 14th Nov 2012 at 13:10.