Citation crash in Sao Paulo
After the drop off at the end of the runway, it looks like they tried to go around. Using the HMS Invincible ski jump technique. 
Not to worry I am sure that it would polish out.
There isn't a huge amount of inertia on those CJ3s once on the ground. so even with a contaminated runway, it is hard to see how they got it so wrong.
Unless they landed long, very long...
Not to worry I am sure that it would polish out.
There isn't a huge amount of inertia on those CJ3s once on the ground. so even with a contaminated runway, it is hard to see how they got it so wrong.
Unless they landed long, very long...
There isn't a huge amount of inertia on those CJ3s once on the ground. so even with a contaminated runway, it is hard to see how they got it so wrong.
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There isn't a huge amount of inertia on those CJ3s once on the ground. so even with a contaminated runway, it is hard to see how they got it so wrong.
Unless they landed long, very long...
Unless they landed long, very long...
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Sao Paul crash
I have always trained, tought and flown aircraft to touch down at a precise spot, at a minimum safe speed. Seemingly this is not always adhered to by other pilots..................Air France in Toronto comes also to mind !
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Wow, when did this happen? Was this Saturday afternoon? I left Sao Paulo on Saturday morning, although not from CGH. But for the entire week I drove by this point both to and from work, and every time I drove by, I was thinking of the TAM incident and thinking how there is no room mistakes here.
Machinbird - you are quite right, however in a CJ there is a large red handled leaver between your thighs, pull that like a car hand break and it will give you a shed load of breaking for three pulls. (From memory).
It doesn't give you anti-skid breaks.
However, if you land at the correct speed at the correct point on even a short runway you will need power to taxi off.
Alternatively you could run it onto the grass and it would stop pretty tout-de-suite.
It looks more like they have landed long and fast. They are very lucky.
(I do standby to be corrected).
It doesn't give you anti-skid breaks.
However, if you land at the correct speed at the correct point on even a short runway you will need power to taxi off.
Alternatively you could run it onto the grass and it would stop pretty tout-de-suite.
It looks more like they have landed long and fast. They are very lucky.
(I do standby to be corrected).
A significant amount of energy was absorbed by the tail, which hit the top of the wall first and broke off, leaving less energy to be absorbed by the nose and wings.
Can any clues be gained about power settings by reference to the puffs of dust after the crash?
Can any clues be gained about power settings by reference to the puffs of dust after the crash?
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BBC News - Brazilian plane skids off runway and crashes into fence
A couple of extra views of the overall area.
Local report saying brakes failed.
A couple of extra views of the overall area.
Local report saying brakes failed.
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the high power seen in the dust after the crash doesnt really give you any indication what the thrust set by the pilots was because the throtle cables can get yanked once the structural integrity of the aircraft has gone so the engines can sometimes increase power after the crash.
CJ's are a solid little plane arent they!
CJ's are a solid little plane arent they!
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They were bl**dy lucky IMHO. That final bounce meant that they straddled the final wall rather than slid head-on into it. Had they done so at the speed that they were travelling the cockpit crew would have had little chance.
Even so the deceleration must have been pretty severe with quite a vertical component as well. I hope there were no serious spinal injuries to the crew and pax.
Even so the deceleration must have been pretty severe with quite a vertical component as well. I hope there were no serious spinal injuries to the crew and pax.
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in a CJ there is a large red handled leaver between your thighs, pull that like a car hand break and it will give you a shed load of breaking for three pulls. (From memory).
It doesn't give you anti-skid breaks.
It doesn't give you anti-skid breaks.
One should seek to bring the aircraft to a stop with one smooth pull and then not attempt to taxi, and correct there's no anti-skid hence the need for a smooth progressive application.
The other point is that pulling the handle and using the brake pedals at the same time will introduce nitrogen into the normal system probably rupturing it, and will render the emergency system ineffective - plenty of chance for a fiasco in the heat of the moment.
Just an update, with info culled from Contatoradar, a Brazilian aviation site with a similar mix of posters to Pprune (you know what I mean...)
.: The 66 yr old pilot is out of danger but has cranial, thorax and spinal injuries requiring surgery. FO has a broken nose and it was the pilot’s 37 yr old wife who, uninjured, released their belts and assisted them out of the aircraft.
.: The pilot is German or of German descent, a wealthy industrialist (ceramics and upmarket resort) and a part owner of the air taxi company to whom the aircraft belongs. His initials are the aircraft’s prefix. He enjoys flying, stays current and is said to frequently fly charters anonymously, handling baggage himself for nouveau riche arrivistes who don’t say please (yes that made me laugh as well).
.: There was a slight tailwind (2-4knots IIRC), runway reported moist by tower but claimed by those who were there to be bone-dry.
.: Possibility of an attempt to go around has been poo-pooed. The official version from the air taxi company is brake failure. Aircraft came out of a ?-check on 1 November.
.: Airport fire services arrived on the scene within 2 minutes.
.: Engines remained running at more than idle (only as reported by witnesses) for around 10 minutes, rocking the loose tail section around, until a fireman entered the cockpit and switched them off.
.: The 66 yr old pilot is out of danger but has cranial, thorax and spinal injuries requiring surgery. FO has a broken nose and it was the pilot’s 37 yr old wife who, uninjured, released their belts and assisted them out of the aircraft.
.: The pilot is German or of German descent, a wealthy industrialist (ceramics and upmarket resort) and a part owner of the air taxi company to whom the aircraft belongs. His initials are the aircraft’s prefix. He enjoys flying, stays current and is said to frequently fly charters anonymously, handling baggage himself for nouveau riche arrivistes who don’t say please (yes that made me laugh as well).
.: There was a slight tailwind (2-4knots IIRC), runway reported moist by tower but claimed by those who were there to be bone-dry.
.: Possibility of an attempt to go around has been poo-pooed. The official version from the air taxi company is brake failure. Aircraft came out of a ?-check on 1 November.
.: Airport fire services arrived on the scene within 2 minutes.
.: Engines remained running at more than idle (only as reported by witnesses) for around 10 minutes, rocking the loose tail section around, until a fireman entered the cockpit and switched them off.
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Most CJ mishaps occur during t/o or landing, and I think more than 50% are rwy overrun. Also, this is the 2nd brake failure accident in 3 years...
CJ series are all smashing aircraft, but something is amiss here. CJ pilots I talk to say that the fault lies with owner-pilots upgrading from piston twins, and underestimating the greater inertia / higher speeds.
...discuss!
CJ series are all smashing aircraft, but something is amiss here. CJ pilots I talk to say that the fault lies with owner-pilots upgrading from piston twins, and underestimating the greater inertia / higher speeds.
...discuss!
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IMO there is too little info to really discuss this accident...or owner problems (do we know the aviation background of this guy?)
For those unfamiliar with the CJ: like all small Citations, it has a little electrical brake pump with a light (brake fail -> gear down and no brake pressure - pumps activated with gear down only - one of the reason why one puts down the gear handle even when blowing the gear down which would work with the handle up as well).
Thats btw the light you don´t want to do a take off abort for...
And 10 pulls is correct. However, from my CJ experience (bout 2000hrs) there are some airframes that have leaky emer brake bottles and some operators omit to have em filled up... NOT saying this is the case here.
For those unfamiliar with the CJ: like all small Citations, it has a little electrical brake pump with a light (brake fail -> gear down and no brake pressure - pumps activated with gear down only - one of the reason why one puts down the gear handle even when blowing the gear down which would work with the handle up as well).
Thats btw the light you don´t want to do a take off abort for...
And 10 pulls is correct. However, from my CJ experience (bout 2000hrs) there are some airframes that have leaky emer brake bottles and some operators omit to have em filled up... NOT saying this is the case here.
Last edited by His dudeness; 15th Nov 2012 at 15:53.
Dudeness, think the aviation background of the owner is mainly recreational. He likes to fly, enough to have invested in the air taxi company, having the accident aircraft registered with his initials and having built a resort/golf complex accessible mainly by air.
All of which, of course, says nothing about his proficiency, although Brazilian authorities did confirm his license is current. So, in that respect, he's clean. He may, of course, not have been as up to date or trained as crew on regular commercial flights into CGH are. There are no special licences required of crew flying into CGH (yet) as there are for Santos Dumont so, if you can get a slot and have the requisite aircraft licences, you're in.
All of which, of course, says nothing about his proficiency, although Brazilian authorities did confirm his license is current. So, in that respect, he's clean. He may, of course, not have been as up to date or trained as crew on regular commercial flights into CGH are. There are no special licences required of crew flying into CGH (yet) as there are for Santos Dumont so, if you can get a slot and have the requisite aircraft licences, you're in.
