Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Citation crash in Sao Paulo

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Citation crash in Sao Paulo

Old 13th Nov 2012, 07:24
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: EGNX
Posts: 1,209
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Nothing like a short runway followed by a sheer ravine, with no RESA or arrestor bed, to sharpen the mind!
Doors to Automatic is offline  
Old 13th Nov 2012, 09:39
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 311
Received 229 Likes on 44 Posts
After the drop off at the end of the runway, it looks like they tried to go around. Using the HMS Invincible ski jump technique.

Not to worry I am sure that it would polish out.

There isn't a huge amount of inertia on those CJ3s once on the ground. so even with a contaminated runway, it is hard to see how they got it so wrong.
Unless they landed long, very long...
Spunky Monkey is online now  
Old 13th Nov 2012, 14:46
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Geneva, Switzerland
Age: 58
Posts: 1,903
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
There isn't a huge amount of inertia on those CJ3s once on the ground. so even with a contaminated runway, it is hard to see how they got it so wrong.
My thoughts, exactly - I really wonder how they could still have that much speed at this location. Glad everyone walked (kind of) out this one.
atakacs is offline  
Old 13th Nov 2012, 15:29
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Polymer Records
Posts: 597
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Every landing you can walk away from...

Artie Fufkin is offline  
Old 13th Nov 2012, 15:32
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Not far from a big Lake
Age: 81
Posts: 1,454
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
There isn't a huge amount of inertia on those CJ3s once on the ground. so even with a contaminated runway, it is hard to see how they got it so wrong.
Unless they landed long, very long...
How about brake failure?
Machinbird is offline  
Old 13th Nov 2012, 23:29
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Florida
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Wonder if the 66 year old owner and the 21 year old FO went to recurrent training on a regular basis?

Last edited by viking767; 13th Nov 2012 at 23:29.
viking767 is offline  
Old 13th Nov 2012, 23:53
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Montreal
Age: 92
Posts: 156
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Sao Paul crash

I have always trained, tought and flown aircraft to touch down at a precise spot, at a minimum safe speed. Seemingly this is not always adhered to by other pilots..................Air France in Toronto comes also to mind !
Yankee Whisky is offline  
Old 14th Nov 2012, 00:00
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Montgomery, NY, USA
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Wow, when did this happen? Was this Saturday afternoon? I left Sao Paulo on Saturday morning, although not from CGH. But for the entire week I drove by this point both to and from work, and every time I drove by, I was thinking of the TAM incident and thinking how there is no room mistakes here.
patrickal is offline  
Old 14th Nov 2012, 10:29
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 311
Received 229 Likes on 44 Posts
Machinbird - you are quite right, however in a CJ there is a large red handled leaver between your thighs, pull that like a car hand break and it will give you a shed load of breaking for three pulls. (From memory).
It doesn't give you anti-skid breaks.

However, if you land at the correct speed at the correct point on even a short runway you will need power to taxi off.

Alternatively you could run it onto the grass and it would stop pretty tout-de-suite.

It looks more like they have landed long and fast. They are very lucky.

(I do standby to be corrected).
Spunky Monkey is online now  
Old 14th Nov 2012, 10:42
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: UK/OZ
Posts: 1,886
Received 7 Likes on 4 Posts
A significant amount of energy was absorbed by the tail, which hit the top of the wall first and broke off, leaving less energy to be absorbed by the nose and wings.

Can any clues be gained about power settings by reference to the puffs of dust after the crash?
mickjoebill is offline  
Old 14th Nov 2012, 12:32
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Esher, Surrey
Posts: 466
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
BBC News - Brazilian plane skids off runway and crashes into fence

A couple of extra views of the overall area.
Local report saying brakes failed.
beamender99 is offline  
Old 14th Nov 2012, 14:02
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: london, UK
Age: 57
Posts: 550
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
the high power seen in the dust after the crash doesnt really give you any indication what the thrust set by the pilots was because the throtle cables can get yanked once the structural integrity of the aircraft has gone so the engines can sometimes increase power after the crash.

CJ's are a solid little plane arent they!
tommoutrie is offline  
Old 14th Nov 2012, 15:08
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Bury St. Edmunds
Age: 64
Posts: 539
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
They were bl**dy lucky IMHO. That final bounce meant that they straddled the final wall rather than slid head-on into it. Had they done so at the speed that they were travelling the cockpit crew would have had little chance.

Even so the deceleration must have been pretty severe with quite a vertical component as well. I hope there were no serious spinal injuries to the crew and pax.
Madbob is offline  
Old 14th Nov 2012, 17:59
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: On the right of the clowns and to the left of the jokers
Posts: 307
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
in a CJ there is a large red handled leaver between your thighs, pull that like a car hand break and it will give you a shed load of breaking for three pulls. (From memory).
It doesn't give you anti-skid breaks.
It's 10 pulls MAXIMUM,The number of pulls available will depend on the nitrogen available, the deflection of the emergency brake lever achieved during the preceding pulls. you're also right though as it is reduced to 5 pulls MAX if the gear emergency extension has been used as around half the capacity of the bottle is used to blow the gear into the down locks in that mode.

One should seek to bring the aircraft to a stop with one smooth pull and then not attempt to taxi, and correct there's no anti-skid hence the need for a smooth progressive application.

The other point is that pulling the handle and using the brake pedals at the same time will introduce nitrogen into the normal system probably rupturing it, and will render the emergency system ineffective - plenty of chance for a fiasco in the heat of the moment.
HS125 is offline  
Old 14th Nov 2012, 21:55
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Scotland
Age: 79
Posts: 807
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Just an update, with info culled from Contatoradar, a Brazilian aviation site with a similar mix of posters to Pprune (you know what I mean...)

.: The 66 yr old pilot is out of danger but has cranial, thorax and spinal injuries requiring surgery. FO has a broken nose and it was the pilot’s 37 yr old wife who, uninjured, released their belts and assisted them out of the aircraft.

.: The pilot is German or of German descent, a wealthy industrialist (ceramics and upmarket resort) and a part owner of the air taxi company to whom the aircraft belongs. His initials are the aircraft’s prefix. He enjoys flying, stays current and is said to frequently fly charters anonymously, handling baggage himself for nouveau riche arrivistes who don’t say please (yes that made me laugh as well).

.: There was a slight tailwind (2-4knots IIRC), runway reported moist by tower but claimed by those who were there to be bone-dry.

.: Possibility of an attempt to go around has been poo-pooed. The official version from the air taxi company is brake failure. Aircraft came out of a ?-check on 1 November.

.: Airport fire services arrived on the scene within 2 minutes.

.: Engines remained running at more than idle (only as reported by witnesses) for around 10 minutes, rocking the loose tail section around, until a fireman entered the cockpit and switched them off.
broadreach is offline  
Old 14th Nov 2012, 23:06
  #36 (permalink)  
Person Of Interest
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Keystone Heights, Florida
Age: 68
Posts: 842
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
That's a great, well thought out and believable contribution to this thread...Well Done.
DownIn3Green is offline  
Old 15th Nov 2012, 15:32
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Timbuktu
Posts: 962
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Most CJ mishaps occur during t/o or landing, and I think more than 50% are rwy overrun. Also, this is the 2nd brake failure accident in 3 years...
CJ series are all smashing aircraft, but something is amiss here. CJ pilots I talk to say that the fault lies with owner-pilots upgrading from piston twins, and underestimating the greater inertia / higher speeds. ...discuss!
Booglebox is offline  
Old 15th Nov 2012, 15:52
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: schermoney and left front seat
Age: 57
Posts: 2,438
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
IMO there is too little info to really discuss this accident...or owner problems (do we know the aviation background of this guy?)

For those unfamiliar with the CJ: like all small Citations, it has a little electrical brake pump with a light (brake fail -> gear down and no brake pressure - pumps activated with gear down only - one of the reason why one puts down the gear handle even when blowing the gear down which would work with the handle up as well).

Thats btw the light you don´t want to do a take off abort for...

And 10 pulls is correct. However, from my CJ experience (bout 2000hrs) there are some airframes that have leaky emer brake bottles and some operators omit to have em filled up... NOT saying this is the case here.

Last edited by His dudeness; 15th Nov 2012 at 15:53.
His dudeness is offline  
Old 15th Nov 2012, 23:46
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Scotland
Age: 79
Posts: 807
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Dudeness, think the aviation background of the owner is mainly recreational. He likes to fly, enough to have invested in the air taxi company, having the accident aircraft registered with his initials and having built a resort/golf complex accessible mainly by air.

All of which, of course, says nothing about his proficiency, although Brazilian authorities did confirm his license is current. So, in that respect, he's clean. He may, of course, not have been as up to date or trained as crew on regular commercial flights into CGH are. There are no special licences required of crew flying into CGH (yet) as there are for Santos Dumont so, if you can get a slot and have the requisite aircraft licences, you're in.
broadreach is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.