China is reducing max flying hrs to 850
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China is reducing max flying hrs to 850
Airlines told to abide by new safety rules -- Shanghai Daily | ???? -- English Window to China New
AIRLINES will be punished if their crew continued to offer service during take-off or landing, or if they worked overtime, according to new rules set by the Civil Aviation Administration of China.
Flight attendants in most cases won't turn down a passenger's request for a blanket when the plane is taking off and they won't collect unfinished meal boxes before landing to avoid passenger complaints.
This disregard for safety as domestic airlines do everything to win customers from competitors has to be addressed, CAAC officials said.
To stop the trend, the CAAC published new rules which allow flight attendants to start serving passengers only when the plane is flying in cruise mode, the Oriental Morning Post reported.
The rules also ban flight crew from working more than 850 hours per year. If airline companies violate the rules, they will not be allowed to buy new planes for three months.
The new rules will take effect on August 1 next year.
AIRLINES will be punished if their crew continued to offer service during take-off or landing, or if they worked overtime, according to new rules set by the Civil Aviation Administration of China.
Flight attendants in most cases won't turn down a passenger's request for a blanket when the plane is taking off and they won't collect unfinished meal boxes before landing to avoid passenger complaints.
This disregard for safety as domestic airlines do everything to win customers from competitors has to be addressed, CAAC officials said.
To stop the trend, the CAAC published new rules which allow flight attendants to start serving passengers only when the plane is flying in cruise mode, the Oriental Morning Post reported.
The rules also ban flight crew from working more than 850 hours per year. If airline companies violate the rules, they will not be allowed to buy new planes for three months.
The new rules will take effect on August 1 next year.
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And the rest of the world wonders why we can't compete against China/India/Middle Eastern carriers! The playing field is about as level as the Atlantic in a force10.
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Perhaps the Chinese are on to something?
1) it improves safety by reducing fatigue
2) it reduces unemployment
3) pilots with a job will spend money into a faltering economy
...and what do we do in the West/Middle East?
1) EASA is stretching the envelop as much as they can
2) more and more unemployed pilots being cranked out by flight schools
3) pilots fortunate enough to have a job are mostly working for peanuts, and/or are not spending any money because of fears of layoffs due to increased productivity of the 'happy' few that remain employed.
1) it improves safety by reducing fatigue
2) it reduces unemployment
3) pilots with a job will spend money into a faltering economy
...and what do we do in the West/Middle East?
1) EASA is stretching the envelop as much as they can
2) more and more unemployed pilots being cranked out by flight schools
3) pilots fortunate enough to have a job are mostly working for peanuts, and/or are not spending any money because of fears of layoffs due to increased productivity of the 'happy' few that remain employed.
Alba Gu Brath
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LLuCCiFeR
Assume that was intended as tongue in cheek!
Does nothing of the sort. What the Chinese regulators are saying is nothing more than a slap on the wrists for offenders. Blatant FTL busts will be punished by a ban on buying new aircraft! What sort of regulation is that?
This in the same month that the ONS in the UK state
So if pilots are being paid peanuts what are the rest of us surviving on?
(Edited for spelling)
Assume that was intended as tongue in cheek!
3) pilots fortunate enough to have a job are mostly working for peanuts, and/or are not spending any money because of fears of layoffs due to increased productivity of the 'happy' few that remain employed.
The highest paid are airline pilots and flight engineers, with average pay of GBP44.49 an hour.
(Edited for spelling)
Last edited by Big Tudor; 13th Nov 2012 at 13:05.
Method in their madness?
I wonder if this is not such a bad idea?
The "penalty" impacts mainly on the executive management of the airline that transgresses.
Most Chinese Airlines are State Owned Companies. That's a bit like the public service. One's career progression in the executive ranks would depend on not having too many black marks on one's record, and being able to rapidly expand their business.
So getting hit with a penalty for slave-driving could theoretically destroy the executive's career progression without impacting on pilots or passengers.
On the face of it, not a bad move.
If it is ever enacted, of course.
The "penalty" impacts mainly on the executive management of the airline that transgresses.
Most Chinese Airlines are State Owned Companies. That's a bit like the public service. One's career progression in the executive ranks would depend on not having too many black marks on one's record, and being able to rapidly expand their business.
So getting hit with a penalty for slave-driving could theoretically destroy the executive's career progression without impacting on pilots or passengers.
On the face of it, not a bad move.
If it is ever enacted, of course.
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While EASA is biased and bribed, firmly exercised governing, Chinese style, might prove more efficient. It's been clear for a while now that without a firm grip of the state use and abuse will be the only drive of the business without any due regard for reason let alone safety. Best example the new EASA flight duty time limitations or the so-called contractor status of an airline captain. I, for once, truly hope BALPA will nail this one so that all this contractor scam will be seized once and for all. It's time for the government to step in and end this madness. 
Last edited by 9.G; 12th Nov 2012 at 01:03.
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The highest paid are airline pilots and flight engineers, with average pay of £44.49 an hour.
'Flying hours' versus 'Duty hours' is the simple journolistic statistic mash up here.
£44.49 per hour for 900 flying hours a year equates to £30 hour for the duty time of (only) 1300 hours a year I achieve for my company. (most times far more)
(1500 duty hours, as achieved last year, £26.67 per hour by those figures)
Never believe what you are first presented with!
Last edited by Wirbelsturm; 12th Nov 2012 at 13:23.
Alba Gu Brath
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China is reducing max flying hrs to 850
And I guess that 1500 hrs includes time spent at home on standby, time spent in transport between stations? You're right in one thing.
Never believe what you are first presented with!
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If they short of pilots now ( as they told) , so what they are going to do next year?
Skyrambler,
The one avenue they haven't explored at this point is to raise the mandatory retirement age.
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While EASA is biased and bribed, firmly exercised governing, Chinese style, might prove more efficient. It's been clear for a while now that without a firm grip of the state use and abuse will be the only drive of the business without any due regard for reason let alone safety. Best example the new EASA flight duty time limitations or the so-called contractor status of an airline captain. I, for once, truly hope BALPA will nail this one so that all this contractor scam will be seized once and for all. It's time for the government to step in and end this madness.
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Big Tudor,
You guessed incorrectly.
If you are going to frequent a pilots' forum and malign the salaries paid to those pilots, kindly learn the differences between the various duties and how they're calculated.
Wirbelsturm alluded to some of the misrepresentation of the figures but there are plenty of others.
Maybe try asking that on a forum for those employed in the same job as you.
If you're running an airline, where are you more likely to 'offend', in China where you're going to receive a tangible punishment or EASAVille etc, where you truly will get a slap on the wrist with no punishment? Given the manner in which many of the Chinese airlines are expanding, a 3 month ban on introducing new aircraft would result in a quite significant restriction.
And I guess that 1500 hrs includes time spent at home on standby, time spent in transport between stations?
If you are going to frequent a pilots' forum and malign the salaries paid to those pilots, kindly learn the differences between the various duties and how they're calculated.
Wirbelsturm alluded to some of the misrepresentation of the figures but there are plenty of others.
So if pilots are being paid peanuts what are the rest of us surviving on?
Does nothing of the sort. What the Chinese regulators are saying is nothing more than a slap on the wrists for offenders. Blatant FTL busts will be punished by a ban on buying new aircraft! What sort of regulation is that?
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time spent at home on standby, time spent in transport between stations?
Nope. That includes preflight, briefing, aircraft set-up, taxy time, turn around time at destination (if shorthaul), post flight, simulators, mandatory ground training etc. etc. etc.
Standby time and 'down-route' time doesn't even count in those 1500.
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Pontius I have no desire to enter into a spat with you on a thread about Chinese aviation. If you want to continue to question my experience please take it off-line.
Wirbelsturm I stand corrected, I did not realise you had only reported duty hours associated with flying duties. In my experience 1500-1800 hours per year, including standby/training/admin is the norm.
As for the averages, the Office for National Statistics report is based on total duty time, not flying/block time.
Wirbelsturm I stand corrected, I did not realise you had only reported duty hours associated with flying duties. In my experience 1500-1800 hours per year, including standby/training/admin is the norm.
As for the averages, the Office for National Statistics report is based on total duty time, not flying/block time.
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For a normal working stiff on 40 hours a week and 4 weeks leave...work time is around 1920 hours a year...not including the commute to and from work or the lunch break...not sure what you are all complaining about, given that being a pilot should be an enjoyable and interesting job.
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For a normal working stiff on 40 hours a week and 4 weeks leave...work time is around 1920 hours a year...not including the commute to and from work or the lunch break...not sure what you are all complaining about, given that being a pilot should be an enjoyable and interesting job.
You are not sure why pilots are complaining (actually they're not) because you don't have a single clue about what our job really is. Oh! And it really is an enjoyable and interesting job.
Check Six, Krueger
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Well Krueger,
If what has been going on for many of the posts on this thread does not constitute complaining about how tough life is, then I obviously have misunderstood the definition of complaining.
Vis your statement that I don't know what a pilots life is like so cant comment (right up there with "Its my ball and Im taking it home"), all I can say is that you don't have a clue as to whether I do or whether I don't, so its impossible for you to make such a bold statement without any evidence to support it.
I on the other hand, have referred to the fairly hard evidence of a number of complaining posts in this thread (which you also deny in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary...is that how you run your flight deck too ?).
As for the inference that everyone else has a job standing around a water cooler and that only airline pilots jobs require them to be cool and decisive on a regular basis as emergencies arise, well on a general basis, thats an incredibly narrow and frankly rather arrogant view of the world and on a specific basis;
1. Statistically rare for a commercial pilot to be faced with a significant emergency on a regular basis, in fact unlucky if its more than one or two times in an entire career.
2. Statistically proven that not every commercial pilot is up to the job when the time comes
Many years ago a tough old Royal Highland Fusilier Sergeant Major told me
that if you want to look for sympathy, you'll find it in the dictionary, between sh1t and syphillis
If what has been going on for many of the posts on this thread does not constitute complaining about how tough life is, then I obviously have misunderstood the definition of complaining.
Vis your statement that I don't know what a pilots life is like so cant comment (right up there with "Its my ball and Im taking it home"), all I can say is that you don't have a clue as to whether I do or whether I don't, so its impossible for you to make such a bold statement without any evidence to support it.
I on the other hand, have referred to the fairly hard evidence of a number of complaining posts in this thread (which you also deny in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary...is that how you run your flight deck too ?).
As for the inference that everyone else has a job standing around a water cooler and that only airline pilots jobs require them to be cool and decisive on a regular basis as emergencies arise, well on a general basis, thats an incredibly narrow and frankly rather arrogant view of the world and on a specific basis;
1. Statistically rare for a commercial pilot to be faced with a significant emergency on a regular basis, in fact unlucky if its more than one or two times in an entire career.
2. Statistically proven that not every commercial pilot is up to the job when the time comes
Many years ago a tough old Royal Highland Fusilier Sergeant Major told me
that if you want to look for sympathy, you'll find it in the dictionary, between sh1t and syphillis
Last edited by rmac; 23rd Nov 2012 at 06:51.
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If trying to clarify to people who have no clue what our job is all about is complaining, we have very different notions about the meaning of the word.
Of course you can say whatever you want, although this is a site for PPrunners. However, since you don't have a clue about our job (the evidence is taken directly from your clueless post), the added value to this conversation is zero.
When I said that other jobs spent hours at work but not really producing anything, it was a wild guess, just like you did about our job(just using your way of thinking). However, it seems that with this wild guess I hit a raw nerve.
I don't know where you those statistics came from, but if they came from the same place where you learned about our profession, that says it all. But having a rather large experience on Flight Safety, I can assure you that they are completely wrong.
As a final remark, regarding the Sergeant's note, it's no wonder why he was a Sergeant.
Check Six Krueger
Of course you can say whatever you want, although this is a site for PPrunners. However, since you don't have a clue about our job (the evidence is taken directly from your clueless post), the added value to this conversation is zero.
When I said that other jobs spent hours at work but not really producing anything, it was a wild guess, just like you did about our job(just using your way of thinking). However, it seems that with this wild guess I hit a raw nerve.
I don't know where you those statistics came from, but if they came from the same place where you learned about our profession, that says it all. But having a rather large experience on Flight Safety, I can assure you that they are completely wrong.
As a final remark, regarding the Sergeant's note, it's no wonder why he was a Sergeant.
Check Six Krueger
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Krueger,
Once again loose with the facts and accuracy .....heavy with assertion without base...whose nerve is touched ?
Clearly the fact that the vast proportion of the thousands of flights completed every day are completed without drama, matched against the size of the pilot community on and off duty on that day and it is indicative that most pilots rarely have to deal with serious emergencies (other than the coffee delivered cold to the flight deck). Of course that reality may make you feel less of a superhero, but I can't help you with that one.
And it's definately proven beyond doubt that not every commercial (or indeed military) pilot is up to the job when the time comes. Proved by the numerous accident reports on record citing pilot error....some of it rather serious..
Maybe I should cut you some slack, seeing as we don't have any "Vipers" in UK, then English must be your second language (even if you were an American
, but if you are plying your trade between Europe and Africa then most likely ex Dutch or Belgian AF.
The Sergeant Major (not Sergeant, big difference...even in your military, but you were probably not paying much attention), retired as a Colonel, saw a lot more trouble than the average commercial flight deck and lived his own philosophy.
Anyway, feel free to have the last word, you seem like that kind of guy (or maybe lady, I'm not sure) , looking forward to reading it...but you could try sticking to facts and logic this time...
Once again loose with the facts and accuracy .....heavy with assertion without base...whose nerve is touched ?
Clearly the fact that the vast proportion of the thousands of flights completed every day are completed without drama, matched against the size of the pilot community on and off duty on that day and it is indicative that most pilots rarely have to deal with serious emergencies (other than the coffee delivered cold to the flight deck). Of course that reality may make you feel less of a superhero, but I can't help you with that one.
And it's definately proven beyond doubt that not every commercial (or indeed military) pilot is up to the job when the time comes. Proved by the numerous accident reports on record citing pilot error....some of it rather serious..
Maybe I should cut you some slack, seeing as we don't have any "Vipers" in UK, then English must be your second language (even if you were an American
, but if you are plying your trade between Europe and Africa then most likely ex Dutch or Belgian AF.The Sergeant Major (not Sergeant, big difference...even in your military, but you were probably not paying much attention), retired as a Colonel, saw a lot more trouble than the average commercial flight deck and lived his own philosophy.
Anyway, feel free to have the last word, you seem like that kind of guy (or maybe lady, I'm not sure) , looking forward to reading it...but you could try sticking to facts and logic this time...
Last edited by rmac; 23rd Nov 2012 at 20:57.