Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

China is reducing max flying hrs to 850

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

China is reducing max flying hrs to 850

Old 10th Nov 2012, 10:07
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
China is reducing max flying hrs to 850

Airlines told to abide by new safety rules -- Shanghai Daily | ???? -- English Window to China New

AIRLINES will be punished if their crew continued to offer service during take-off or landing, or if they worked overtime, according to new rules set by the Civil Aviation Administration of China.

Flight attendants in most cases won't turn down a passenger's request for a blanket when the plane is taking off and they won't collect unfinished meal boxes before landing to avoid passenger complaints.

This disregard for safety as domestic airlines do everything to win customers from competitors has to be addressed, CAAC officials said.

To stop the trend, the CAAC published new rules which allow flight attendants to start serving passengers only when the plane is flying in cruise mode, the Oriental Morning Post reported.

The rules also ban flight crew from working more than 850 hours per year. If airline companies violate the rules, they will not be allowed to buy new planes for three months.

The new rules will take effect on August 1 next year.
skyrambler is offline  
Old 10th Nov 2012, 11:48
  #2 (permalink)  
Alba Gu Brath
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Merseyside
Age: 55
Posts: 738
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by skyrambler
If airline companies violate the rules, they will not be allowed to buy new planes for three months..
So it will be ok to lease new planes, or buy second-hand!

And the rest of the world wonders why we can't compete against China/India/Middle Eastern carriers! The playing field is about as level as the Atlantic in a force10.
Big Tudor is online now  
Old 10th Nov 2012, 12:54
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: El Dorado
Posts: 162
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Perhaps the Chinese are on to something?

1) it improves safety by reducing fatigue
2) it reduces unemployment
3) pilots with a job will spend money into a faltering economy

...and what do we do in the West/Middle East?

1) EASA is stretching the envelop as much as they can
2) more and more unemployed pilots being cranked out by flight schools
3) pilots fortunate enough to have a job are mostly working for peanuts, and/or are not spending any money because of fears of layoffs due to increased productivity of the 'happy' few that remain employed.
LLuCCiFeR is offline  
Old 10th Nov 2012, 16:01
  #4 (permalink)  
Alba Gu Brath
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Merseyside
Age: 55
Posts: 738
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
LLuCCiFeR

Assume that was intended as tongue in cheek!
Originally Posted by LLuCCiFeR
Perhaps the Chinese are on to something?

1) it improves safety by reducing fatigue
2) it reduces unemployment
3) pilots with a job will spend money into a faltering economy
Does nothing of the sort. What the Chinese regulators are saying is nothing more than a slap on the wrists for offenders. Blatant FTL busts will be punished by a ban on buying new aircraft! What sort of regulation is that?
3) pilots fortunate enough to have a job are mostly working for peanuts, and/or are not spending any money because of fears of layoffs due to increased productivity of the 'happy' few that remain employed.
This in the same month that the ONS in the UK state
The highest paid are airline pilots and flight engineers, with average pay of GBP44.49 an hour.
So if pilots are being paid peanuts what are the rest of us surviving on?

(Edited for spelling)

Last edited by Big Tudor; 13th Nov 2012 at 13:05.
Big Tudor is online now  
Old 10th Nov 2012, 16:40
  #5 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
If they short of pilots now ( as they told) , so what they are going to do next year?
skyrambler is offline  
Old 11th Nov 2012, 23:16
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia
Age: 73
Posts: 127
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Method in their madness?

I wonder if this is not such a bad idea?

The "penalty" impacts mainly on the executive management of the airline that transgresses.

Most Chinese Airlines are State Owned Companies. That's a bit like the public service. One's career progression in the executive ranks would depend on not having too many black marks on one's record, and being able to rapidly expand their business.

So getting hit with a penalty for slave-driving could theoretically destroy the executive's career progression without impacting on pilots or passengers.

On the face of it, not a bad move.

If it is ever enacted, of course.
JohnMcGhie is offline  
Old 12th Nov 2012, 00:50
  #7 (permalink)  
9.G
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: paradise
Posts: 559
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
While EASA is biased and bribed, firmly exercised governing, Chinese style, might prove more efficient. It's been clear for a while now that without a firm grip of the state use and abuse will be the only drive of the business without any due regard for reason let alone safety. Best example the new EASA flight duty time limitations or the so-called contractor status of an airline captain. I, for once, truly hope BALPA will nail this one so that all this contractor scam will be seized once and for all. It's time for the government to step in and end this madness.

Last edited by 9.G; 12th Nov 2012 at 01:03.
9.G is offline  
Old 12th Nov 2012, 13:15
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Planet Moo Moo
Posts: 1,279
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The highest paid are airline pilots and flight engineers, with average pay of 44.49 an hour.
An hour for what? Per 'flying hour' is the favourite sum but, the lastI looked, I didn't magically appear 'in the cockpit' neither magically appear 'in my car' after landing. Neither do I 'teleport' myself back home during long distance trips.

'Flying hours' versus 'Duty hours' is the simple journolistic statistic mash up here.

44.49 per hour for 900 flying hours a year equates to 30 hour for the duty time of (only) 1300 hours a year I achieve for my company. (most times far more)

(1500 duty hours, as achieved last year, 26.67 per hour by those figures)

Never believe what you are first presented with!

Last edited by Wirbelsturm; 12th Nov 2012 at 13:23.
Wirbelsturm is offline  
Old 12th Nov 2012, 15:12
  #9 (permalink)  
Alba Gu Brath
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Merseyside
Age: 55
Posts: 738
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
China is reducing max flying hrs to 850

And I guess that 1500 hrs includes time spent at home on standby, time spent in transport between stations? You're right in one thing.
Never believe what you are first presented with!
Big Tudor is online now  
Old 12th Nov 2012, 15:18
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: I bucked one and Tim bucked two
Posts: 68
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
If they short of pilots now ( as they told) , so what they are going to do next year?

Skyrambler,

The one avenue they haven't explored at this point is to raise the mandatory retirement age.
Keylime is offline  
Old 12th Nov 2012, 16:30
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,642
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
While EASA is biased and bribed, firmly exercised governing, Chinese style, might prove more efficient. It's been clear for a while now that without a firm grip of the state use and abuse will be the only drive of the business without any due regard for reason let alone safety. Best example the new EASA flight duty time limitations or the so-called contractor status of an airline captain. I, for once, truly hope BALPA will nail this one so that all this contractor scam will be seized once and for all. It's time for the government to step in and end this madness.
9G the rest of Europe seem to be managing with Sub Part Q.....
Mr Angry from Purley is offline  
Old 12th Nov 2012, 23:21
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 1996
Location: Check with Ops
Posts: 741
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Big Tudor,

And I guess that 1500 hrs includes time spent at home on standby, time spent in transport between stations?
You guessed incorrectly.

If you are going to frequent a pilots' forum and malign the salaries paid to those pilots, kindly learn the differences between the various duties and how they're calculated.

Wirbelsturm alluded to some of the misrepresentation of the figures but there are plenty of others.

So if pilots are being paid peanuts what are the rest of us surviving on?
Maybe try asking that on a forum for those employed in the same job as you.

Does nothing of the sort. What the Chinese regulators are saying is nothing more than a slap on the wrists for offenders. Blatant FTL busts will be punished by a ban on buying new aircraft! What sort of regulation is that?
If you're running an airline, where are you more likely to 'offend', in China where you're going to receive a tangible punishment or EASAVille etc, where you truly will get a slap on the wrist with no punishment? Given the manner in which many of the Chinese airlines are expanding, a 3 month ban on introducing new aircraft would result in a quite significant restriction.
Pontius is offline  
Old 13th Nov 2012, 09:30
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Planet Moo Moo
Posts: 1,279
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
time spent at home on standby, time spent in transport between stations?
Sigh......

Nope. That includes preflight, briefing, aircraft set-up, taxy time, turn around time at destination (if shorthaul), post flight, simulators, mandatory ground training etc. etc. etc.

Standby time and 'down-route' time doesn't even count in those 1500.
Wirbelsturm is offline  
Old 13th Nov 2012, 13:03
  #14 (permalink)  
Alba Gu Brath
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Merseyside
Age: 55
Posts: 738
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Pontius I have no desire to enter into a spat with you on a thread about Chinese aviation. If you want to continue to question my experience please take it off-line.

Wirbelsturm I stand corrected, I did not realise you had only reported duty hours associated with flying duties. In my experience 1500-1800 hours per year, including standby/training/admin is the norm.

As for the averages, the Office for National Statistics report is based on total duty time, not flying/block time.
Big Tudor is online now  
Old 22nd Nov 2012, 20:32
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Age: 60
Posts: 491
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
For a normal working stiff on 40 hours a week and 4 weeks leave...work time is around 1920 hours a year...not including the commute to and from work or the lunch break...not sure what you are all complaining about, given that being a pilot should be an enjoyable and interesting job.
rmac is offline  
Old 22nd Nov 2012, 21:57
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: US and A
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Where is the "cruise mode"button located?
Bukkake is offline  
Old 22nd Nov 2012, 22:57
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Somewhere between Europe and Africa
Posts: 154
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
For a normal working stiff on 40 hours a week and 4 weeks leave...work time is around 1920 hours a year...not including the commute to and from work or the lunch break...not sure what you are all complaining about, given that being a pilot should be an enjoyable and interesting job.
Taking into account that part of that time is used on facebook or pprune, the rest sipping coffee with friends, the most serious emergency is running out of toner...and on and on.

You are not sure why pilots are complaining (actually they're not) because you don't have a single clue about what our job really is. Oh! And it really is an enjoyable and interesting job.

Check Six, Krueger
Krueger is offline  
Old 23rd Nov 2012, 06:29
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Age: 60
Posts: 491
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Well Krueger,

If what has been going on for many of the posts on this thread does not constitute complaining about how tough life is, then I obviously have misunderstood the definition of complaining.

Vis your statement that I don't know what a pilots life is like so cant comment (right up there with "Its my ball and Im taking it home"), all I can say is that you don't have a clue as to whether I do or whether I don't, so its impossible for you to make such a bold statement without any evidence to support it.

I on the other hand, have referred to the fairly hard evidence of a number of complaining posts in this thread (which you also deny in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary...is that how you run your flight deck too ?).

As for the inference that everyone else has a job standing around a water cooler and that only airline pilots jobs require them to be cool and decisive on a regular basis as emergencies arise, well on a general basis, thats an incredibly narrow and frankly rather arrogant view of the world and on a specific basis;

1. Statistically rare for a commercial pilot to be faced with a significant emergency on a regular basis, in fact unlucky if its more than one or two times in an entire career.
2. Statistically proven that not every commercial pilot is up to the job when the time comes

Many years ago a tough old Royal Highland Fusilier Sergeant Major told me
that if you want to look for sympathy, you'll find it in the dictionary, between sh1t and syphillis

Last edited by rmac; 23rd Nov 2012 at 06:51.
rmac is offline  
Old 23rd Nov 2012, 19:54
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Somewhere between Europe and Africa
Posts: 154
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
If trying to clarify to people who have no clue what our job is all about is complaining, we have very different notions about the meaning of the word.

Of course you can say whatever you want, although this is a site for PPrunners. However, since you don't have a clue about our job (the evidence is taken directly from your clueless post), the added value to this conversation is zero.

When I said that other jobs spent hours at work but not really producing anything, it was a wild guess, just like you did about our job(just using your way of thinking). However, it seems that with this wild guess I hit a raw nerve.

I don't know where you those statistics came from, but if they came from the same place where you learned about our profession, that says it all. But having a rather large experience on Flight Safety, I can assure you that they are completely wrong.

As a final remark, regarding the Sergeant's note, it's no wonder why he was a Sergeant.

Check Six Krueger
Krueger is offline  
Old 23rd Nov 2012, 20:51
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Age: 60
Posts: 491
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Krueger,

Once again loose with the facts and accuracy .....heavy with assertion without base...whose nerve is touched ?

Clearly the fact that the vast proportion of the thousands of flights completed every day are completed without drama, matched against the size of the pilot community on and off duty on that day and it is indicative that most pilots rarely have to deal with serious emergencies (other than the coffee delivered cold to the flight deck). Of course that reality may make you feel less of a superhero, but I can't help you with that one.

And it's definately proven beyond doubt that not every commercial (or indeed military) pilot is up to the job when the time comes. Proved by the numerous accident reports on record citing pilot error....some of it rather serious..

Maybe I should cut you some slack, seeing as we don't have any "Vipers" in UK, then English must be your second language (even if you were an American , but if you are plying your trade between Europe and Africa then most likely ex Dutch or Belgian AF.

The Sergeant Major (not Sergeant, big difference...even in your military, but you were probably not paying much attention), retired as a Colonel, saw a lot more trouble than the average commercial flight deck and lived his own philosophy.

Anyway, feel free to have the last word, you seem like that kind of guy (or maybe lady, I'm not sure) , looking forward to reading it...but you could try sticking to facts and logic this time...

Last edited by rmac; 23rd Nov 2012 at 20:57.
rmac is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.