AF 321 close to stall
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Tchai and Firefly you got it.... on approach in a modern aeroplane.. (AB or B I don't care) speed is all... speed is life .... I fail to see how this situation can arise .. no matter what automation is available the appropriate speed MUST be maintained... do these people have no sense of self preservation... let alone for all the souls down the back ?
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Hand flying from TOD is like watching a monkey hanging from a tree branch. If you know how to do it it's no big deal.
If the PF can actually fly he's not learning or practicing anything. If he can't fly it's a huge PITA for the PNF/PM.
If the PF can actually fly he's not learning or practicing anything. If he can't fly it's a huge PITA for the PNF/PM.
Ut Sementem Feeceris
This is truly alarming. As has been said, if the Autothrust fails, the thrust is locked. Of course it may have failed during deceleration/configuration so it probably(?) failed at idle to allow the aircraft to decelarate to AlphaFloor.
WHO WAS FLYING THE AIRCRAFT?!! AVIATE, navigate, communicate. ECAM is secondary - make sure your not going to fall out the sky!!! This scenario however is what Alpha Floor was designed for. It appears to have rescued the crew from basic inattention.........
For this to be AF (again) post AF447 is really worrying. No doubt the report will provide the details.
A4
WHO WAS FLYING THE AIRCRAFT?!! AVIATE, navigate, communicate. ECAM is secondary - make sure your not going to fall out the sky!!! This scenario however is what Alpha Floor was designed for. It appears to have rescued the crew from basic inattention.........
For this to be AF (again) post AF447 is really worrying. No doubt the report will provide the details.
A4
Last edited by A4; 12th Sep 2012 at 20:52. Reason: spelling
Just worth saying that this is an on-going BEA Inquiry, of which they have released this and only this:
http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/2012...semaine.36.pdf
AGB
http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/2012...semaine.36.pdf
20/07/2012 AD Paris Charles de Gaulle(95)
0 0 Passage sous la vitesse d'évolution en approche, déclenchement de la protection grande incidence
Vol AD Bordeaux Mérignac (33) - AD Paris Charles de Gaulle (95).
Lors de l'approche, pilote automatique engagé et A/THR déconnectée, l'avion passe en dessous de la vitesse d'évolution. Le pilote automatique se déconnecte à la suite de l'activation de la protection grande incidence ''ALPHA PROT". L'équipage reprend les commandes, réajuste la poussée et atterrit normalement.
0 0 Passage sous la vitesse d'évolution en approche, déclenchement de la protection grande incidence
Vol AD Bordeaux Mérignac (33) - AD Paris Charles de Gaulle (95).
Lors de l'approche, pilote automatique engagé et A/THR déconnectée, l'avion passe en dessous de la vitesse d'évolution. Le pilote automatique se déconnecte à la suite de l'activation de la protection grande incidence ''ALPHA PROT". L'équipage reprend les commandes, réajuste la poussée et atterrit normalement.
Last edited by Gary Brown; 12th Sep 2012 at 20:59.
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I find it amazing how every few months you can expect a "problem" with AF... Not going into any particular reasons how or why an incident/accident occured, just when it comes to AF, there's too many of them. Anyone wanna bet on outcome of this particular "incident" if they had flown anything else, insead of dummy-proof airplane?
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This is a modern day phenomena and you are going to see more of it as the years go by.
The manufacturers have convinced the airlines that the automatics are so good on their aircraft that they don't need to spend a fortune on training, so they don't. They have led the airlines to believe that anyone can fly their aircraft, so the airlines employ 'anyone' when they are short of pilots.
Most pilots I have sat beside or behind in recent times have the autopilot in as soon as it is legally allowed after take-off & it doesn't come out until around 200' on final. They can't fly, or are inadequately trained, or are just plain lazy, or perhaps all three.
I have sat in a classroom & heard a TRE state that there are three pilots on the flight deck - the captain, the first officer & the autopilot! I'm sorry, but the autopilot is not a pilot. It is a pilot aid, like an autothrottle or a moving map. But pilots are buying into this philosophy for various reasons.
The best place to find out a pilot's mindset is in the 737 sim during S/E ops. Those that think the autopilot is a pilot & are used to completely handing over the operation to it on an every day basis, tend to get themselves into all sorts of trouble, as they forget they are still responsible for the rudder & the thrust lever on the operating engine. Then they blame the automatics when the aircraft turns against the heading bug, or the speed is too fast or too slow. They don't notice that the control wheel is hard over trying to fly the aircraft straight, or perhaps they just don't understand why it is like that.
It has been said in the past that the pilots of the future will just be systems managers. Perhaps we are already there & the bulk of the personel on the flight deck these days are system managers & not pilots. If this is the case, the problem may be that the systems are just not quite as good as the manufacturers have promised everyone & the systems managers don't have a clue what to do on the rare occasions that things don't work as advertised.
The manufacturers have convinced the airlines that the automatics are so good on their aircraft that they don't need to spend a fortune on training, so they don't. They have led the airlines to believe that anyone can fly their aircraft, so the airlines employ 'anyone' when they are short of pilots.
Most pilots I have sat beside or behind in recent times have the autopilot in as soon as it is legally allowed after take-off & it doesn't come out until around 200' on final. They can't fly, or are inadequately trained, or are just plain lazy, or perhaps all three.
I have sat in a classroom & heard a TRE state that there are three pilots on the flight deck - the captain, the first officer & the autopilot! I'm sorry, but the autopilot is not a pilot. It is a pilot aid, like an autothrottle or a moving map. But pilots are buying into this philosophy for various reasons.
The best place to find out a pilot's mindset is in the 737 sim during S/E ops. Those that think the autopilot is a pilot & are used to completely handing over the operation to it on an every day basis, tend to get themselves into all sorts of trouble, as they forget they are still responsible for the rudder & the thrust lever on the operating engine. Then they blame the automatics when the aircraft turns against the heading bug, or the speed is too fast or too slow. They don't notice that the control wheel is hard over trying to fly the aircraft straight, or perhaps they just don't understand why it is like that.
It has been said in the past that the pilots of the future will just be systems managers. Perhaps we are already there & the bulk of the personel on the flight deck these days are system managers & not pilots. If this is the case, the problem may be that the systems are just not quite as good as the manufacturers have promised everyone & the systems managers don't have a clue what to do on the rare occasions that things don't work as advertised.
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Two pilots watched a Turkish 737 enter flare mode and crash from 2000 agl. The aircraft doesn't matter. The training and attitude of the pilots does matter.
I think it is about time AF hired some expat DECs and instructors to bring them in line with the 20th century.
Basic Airmanship
Fireflybob and Tchaikovsky,
I totally agree with all you have said. This incident appears to be yet another occurrence of over reliance in automation and complacency. It is unsurprising but bares little satisfaction that it has occurred to AF.
Was merely pointing out where the 737 differs from an Airbus. Irregardless of type, the role of the pilot shouldn't change. The accident in Toronto , the accident over the Southern Atlantic and now this shows a reaccurring trend with AF. It's hard to think it is all possible?
I think it is about time AF hired some expat DECs and instructors to bring them in line with the 20th century.
Basic Airmanship
Fireflybob and Tchaikovsky,
I totally agree with all you have said. This incident appears to be yet another occurrence of over reliance in automation and complacency. It is unsurprising but bares little satisfaction that it has occurred to AF.
Was merely pointing out where the 737 differs from an Airbus. Irregardless of type, the role of the pilot shouldn't change. The accident in Toronto , the accident over the Southern Atlantic and now this shows a reaccurring trend with AF. It's hard to think it is all possible?
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These days crew stare vaguely out of the window as the automatics fly the approach, then concentrate fiercely on their instruments once visual and hand flying for the landing ...
Even found myself doing this, espeially the final sector at 9:00am after an all night duty.
Last edited by Sciolistes; 13th Sep 2012 at 03:29.
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With all respect, I think, some of you are wrong on this question.
It's not a problem of skills, or a question of training.
It's a question of behaviour in a cockpit. People rely too much on automation these days, and this is a perfect example of people looking outside the window, chatting, and not looking at the ASI during this crutial phase of flight: Approach and landing.
Unfortunately, I think this will happen more and more in the future.
The question is. How can we stop this from happening?
Short-fuel.
It's not a problem of skills, or a question of training.
It's a question of behaviour in a cockpit. People rely too much on automation these days, and this is a perfect example of people looking outside the window, chatting, and not looking at the ASI during this crutial phase of flight: Approach and landing.
Unfortunately, I think this will happen more and more in the future.
The question is. How can we stop this from happening?
Short-fuel.
sterile cockpit and window blinds
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and not looking at the ASI during this crutial phase of flight: Approach and landing.
- what attitude am I flying?
- what power setting do I expect?
If the ASI, like in this case, is something around 30% low, the pitch must be about double and the power at idle to follow the glide.
Hello, who is flying that thing?
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When I look back to flying the B737-200 in the 1980s or the B707 in the 1970s I recall...
Unfortunately, I think this will happen more and more in the future.
The question is. How can we stop this from happening?
The question is. How can we stop this from happening?
For this to be AF (again) post AF447 is really worrying
If this incident occurred on say a BA or Lufthansa flight would the relevant authority even be investigating it?
Golf-Sierra
Once again I get the feeling that there's more to this story than what's been reported. If the autothrust kicked off on its own, do you not get repeated single chimes to remind you of it the fact that you are in thrust lock?
If on the other hand, the PF pushed the disconnect button and cancelled the caution because they intended to fly the approach with the autothrust off, then this is a completely different scenario.
If on the other hand, the PF pushed the disconnect button and cancelled the caution because they intended to fly the approach with the autothrust off, then this is a completely different scenario.
From
<<Again, will our future pilots be able to fly their aircraft without the assistance of autopilots and computers when necessary if they never get the chance to practise these skills during normal operation? A related factor is that a pilot whose job is merely to watch the aircraft fly itself is unlikely to be as well motivated as one who can get his or her hands on the controls now and then. Designers of future aircraft and airline managers must address the issue of how much and under what conditions pilots should be allowed, or indeed encouraged, to fly manually and without guidance systems. It is likely that compared to a mere aircraft monitor, a skilled, motivated pilot will always make a greater overall contribution to flight safety.>>
<<Again, will our future pilots be able to fly their aircraft without the assistance of autopilots and computers when necessary if they never get the chance to practise these skills during normal operation? A related factor is that a pilot whose job is merely to watch the aircraft fly itself is unlikely to be as well motivated as one who can get his or her hands on the controls now and then. Designers of future aircraft and airline managers must address the issue of how much and under what conditions pilots should be allowed, or indeed encouraged, to fly manually and without guidance systems. It is likely that compared to a mere aircraft monitor, a skilled, motivated pilot will always make a greater overall contribution to flight safety.>>
Last edited by Discorde; 13th Sep 2012 at 10:35.
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Just putting this out there.....as far as I know its not done for a good reason just I don't know what that is....
On the actual throttle levers is there any indication (coloured leds for example) to show the status of the throttles? Auto/manual/engine failure etc?
Just seems to me that its a bit like driving a car & scanning gauges.....each gauge should have a green light around the whole gauge to indicate the value it is showing is within normal limits, orange if just out & red if seriously out.
On approach or if in an emergency, you just need to do a quick scan for colours, then another for actual values...but as soon as a gauge indicates an issue with a needle pointer, the orange/red surrounding light would point you straight to it...Ah Hello LOOK AT ME!
With the airspeed, the aircraft would know what is normal for approach & show green, if it wasn't normal it would show orange & red if it was close enough to stall to warrant it....
I just think scanning gauges & looking at the physical position of throttle levers is going to continue to be an issue.....
the gauge reads 20 for example, you go ok its ok.....but how often have you done a double take in real life & said, hang on that should be 30 - how did I miss that?
In this case the aircraft should be indicating loudly & strongly that the approach is not normal, something that is active on the last 1000 landings is now turned off that should have sent alarms bells...In addition even if the pilot turns it off, somehow you need to confirm he knows it's off....."Are you sure Y/N?" to avoid accidentally or inadvertently turning something off (or on...)
As I see it these planes are smart enough to fly themselves but they aren't real good at keeping the pilots informed what they are doing.......
Would it be a problem for an automated voice to say
"INFORMATION: Auto throttle disconnected because xxxx" where xxxx is the reason for the disconnection.....The pilot would know instantly its turned off & why the plane thought it needed to turn it off.....
Both bits of information I would have thought very useful for the pilot & they would be delivered in the quickest & most sussinked manner.
Far quicker than reading a message on a screen....
My GPS can tell me I'm speeding, but a plane can't?
What am I missing?
Cheers
On the actual throttle levers is there any indication (coloured leds for example) to show the status of the throttles? Auto/manual/engine failure etc?
Just seems to me that its a bit like driving a car & scanning gauges.....each gauge should have a green light around the whole gauge to indicate the value it is showing is within normal limits, orange if just out & red if seriously out.
On approach or if in an emergency, you just need to do a quick scan for colours, then another for actual values...but as soon as a gauge indicates an issue with a needle pointer, the orange/red surrounding light would point you straight to it...Ah Hello LOOK AT ME!
With the airspeed, the aircraft would know what is normal for approach & show green, if it wasn't normal it would show orange & red if it was close enough to stall to warrant it....
I just think scanning gauges & looking at the physical position of throttle levers is going to continue to be an issue.....
the gauge reads 20 for example, you go ok its ok.....but how often have you done a double take in real life & said, hang on that should be 30 - how did I miss that?
In this case the aircraft should be indicating loudly & strongly that the approach is not normal, something that is active on the last 1000 landings is now turned off that should have sent alarms bells...In addition even if the pilot turns it off, somehow you need to confirm he knows it's off....."Are you sure Y/N?" to avoid accidentally or inadvertently turning something off (or on...)
As I see it these planes are smart enough to fly themselves but they aren't real good at keeping the pilots informed what they are doing.......
Would it be a problem for an automated voice to say
"INFORMATION: Auto throttle disconnected because xxxx" where xxxx is the reason for the disconnection.....The pilot would know instantly its turned off & why the plane thought it needed to turn it off.....
Both bits of information I would have thought very useful for the pilot & they would be delivered in the quickest & most sussinked manner.
Far quicker than reading a message on a screen....
My GPS can tell me I'm speeding, but a plane can't?
What am I missing?
Cheers
ERRONEOUS RAD ALT HT INDICATION
Known issue on Boeing and Airbus models.
Effects the A/T systems and can lead to thrust idle.
Plenty of info and training guidance from Airbus and Boeing on the subject.
Next.......
Effects the A/T systems and can lead to thrust idle.
Plenty of info and training guidance from Airbus and Boeing on the subject.
Next.......
Last edited by nitpicker330; 13th Sep 2012 at 12:01.
Originally Posted by Bus Junkie
AF pilots seem to have a real problem with basic flying skills.
What is their issue?
What is their issue?
I am not saying AF doesn't have its problems, I do tend to agree with Hetfield. I'm just saying that malaise is a) not as dangerous or critical as some panicky exclamations of "Today pilots cant fly!" claim b) far, far more widespread than just Air France.
Originally Posted by Callsign Kilo
The 737's A/T disengagement annunciating system, as you likely know, is cack and relies heavily on the crew to be monitoring the FMA at all times.
Originally Posted by Callsign Kilo
With the BOH incident the aircraft approached the stall, the crew applied TOGA thrust and the resulting pitch power couple stalled the aircraft.
Originally Posted by Tcahikovsky
As pilots, out primary role in these modern days is to monitor the automatics.
about automatics or flying in general. Pilots are there to control the aeroplane; no more, no less! If they have to use automatics to help them, so be it but not a little bit of responsibility for the flight can be offloaded to a mindless entity, such as autopilot. "Monitoring" doesn't just mean "sit there and watch" but also "do something and do it right when things go wrong".
Originally Posted by Fireflybob
I don't blame the individuals - it is the system (or lack of it) that has produced this result.
Originally Posted by Fireflybob
If we want pilots to be competent they have to be in practice at hand flying.
Originally Posted by Smudger
do these people have no sense of self preservation...
Another problem is the modern manager, who has been trained from kindergarten that there is rulebook for everything and everything must stick to rulebook. There is no appreciation of how we got our rules written in the first place. There is no recognition or appreciation that the pilots who were in love with flying always acquired knowledge of the air & machinery far, far in excess of what the regulations required of them and many times this saved the day. So the ignoranti put their faith in learning the rulebooks by rote and get nasty surprise when they can remember what chapter 4 page 42 of OM-this-and-that said when tension is high.
Originally Posted by A4
WHO WAS FLYING THE AIRCRAFT?!!
Originally Posted by A4
AVIATE, navigate, communicate. ECAM is secondary - make sure your not going to fall out the sky!!!
Originally Posted by aviofreek
Not going into any particular reasons how or why an incident/accident occured, just when it comes to AF, there's too many of them.
Originally Posted by Oakape
The manufacturers have convinced the airlines that the automatics are so good on their aircraft that they don't need to spend a fortune on training, so they don't.
Originally Posted by StromKnight
On the actual throttle levers is there any indication (coloured leds for example) to show the status of the throttles? Auto/manual/engine failure etc?
Originally Posted by StormyKnight
I just think scanning gauges & looking at the physical position of throttle levers is going to continue to be an issue.....
Originally Posted by Stormyknight
With the airspeed, the aircraft would know what is normal for approach & show green, if it wasn't normal it would show orange & red if it was close enough to stall to warrant it....
Originally Posted by StormyKnight
In addition even if the pilot turns it off, somehow you need to confirm he knows it's off....."Are you sure Y/N?" to avoid accidentally or inadvertently turning something off (or on...)
Originally Posted by Stormyknight
As I see it these planes are smart enough to fly themselves but they aren't real good at keeping the pilots informed what they are doing.......
Originally Posted by StromyKnight
What am I missing?