Ryanair claim upheld
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Ryanair claim upheld
Brussels has upheld the claim by Ryanair that Spain is not able to revoke Ryanair's licence. Brussels has affirmed that a licence may only be revoked by the government of the country in which the company is licensed - in this case, Ireland. Here's a link to a summary in the Spanish paper Las Provincias:
La UE recuerda a Espaa que no puede retirar la licencia a Ryanair. Las Provincias
La UE recuerda a Espaa que no puede retirar la licencia a Ryanair. Las Provincias
From Google translate.
The European Commission (EC) has said that Spain can not withdraw the license to airlines registered in another country citing security reasons, so no one could take such action against low-cost airline Ryanair, based in Ireland. "Under current European legislation on aviation security, the authority to revoke an operating license to an airline for safety belongs exclusively to the State in which it is registered," said EU spokesman Dale Kidd.
"That is, a British airline, could withdraw the license only British authorities, in the case of a Spanish airline, only the Spanish authorities," he stated. Answers to any questions regarding the safety standards applied by the airlines, and the imposition of sanctions also fall on the country where the company is registered.
The Spanish Minister for Public Works, Ana Pastor, announced Monday that Spain will promote change in the EU regulation to national supervisory authorities to extend their authority over foreign airlines strong presence in its territory. The Spanish government said it intends to toughen sanctions against airlines and ensure that they meet safety standards, after the incidents involving this summer by Ryanair, but Pastor eluded refer to it during his appearance.
Air safety
EU spokesman noted that the EC has not yet received any formal information on this initiative and has avoided comment on its contents until they receive the full proposal. Yes Kidd said the EU executive's willingness to improve European legislation on air reporting incidents taking place in the territory of a particular country, but involve airlines registered in another Member State. "This is something that the EC would support strongly and, in fact, we are working on a proposal of this kind," the spokesman noted.
For now, under current legislation, Kidd has indicated that if a country has "doubts" about whether an airline based in another country meets the security, can take the case to the country or the European Commission to take action . She also pointed out that there is a permanent control at European level on security issues related to air transport, which is in charge of the Air Safety Committee. "If there is any concern at European level concerning a Member State has failed to take appropriate action, the matter may be brought before the Air Safety Committee," was riveting.
The European Commission (EC) has said that Spain can not withdraw the license to airlines registered in another country citing security reasons, so no one could take such action against low-cost airline Ryanair, based in Ireland. "Under current European legislation on aviation security, the authority to revoke an operating license to an airline for safety belongs exclusively to the State in which it is registered," said EU spokesman Dale Kidd.
"That is, a British airline, could withdraw the license only British authorities, in the case of a Spanish airline, only the Spanish authorities," he stated. Answers to any questions regarding the safety standards applied by the airlines, and the imposition of sanctions also fall on the country where the company is registered.
The Spanish Minister for Public Works, Ana Pastor, announced Monday that Spain will promote change in the EU regulation to national supervisory authorities to extend their authority over foreign airlines strong presence in its territory. The Spanish government said it intends to toughen sanctions against airlines and ensure that they meet safety standards, after the incidents involving this summer by Ryanair, but Pastor eluded refer to it during his appearance.
Air safety
EU spokesman noted that the EC has not yet received any formal information on this initiative and has avoided comment on its contents until they receive the full proposal. Yes Kidd said the EU executive's willingness to improve European legislation on air reporting incidents taking place in the territory of a particular country, but involve airlines registered in another Member State. "This is something that the EC would support strongly and, in fact, we are working on a proposal of this kind," the spokesman noted.
For now, under current legislation, Kidd has indicated that if a country has "doubts" about whether an airline based in another country meets the security, can take the case to the country or the European Commission to take action . She also pointed out that there is a permanent control at European level on security issues related to air transport, which is in charge of the Air Safety Committee. "If there is any concern at European level concerning a Member State has failed to take appropriate action, the matter may be brought before the Air Safety Committee," was riveting.
http://www.ryanair.com/doc/news/2012/openletter.pdf
Seems like a Spanish agency (AESA) is briefing the media but said agency Director plus their Head of Legal is under criminal investigation for falsyfying documents.
Crikey you couldn't make this up.
Seems like a Spanish agency (AESA) is briefing the media but said agency Director plus their Head of Legal is under criminal investigation for falsyfying documents.
Crikey you couldn't make this up.
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The Spanish government said it intends to toughen sanctions against airlines and ensure that they meet safety standards, after the incidents involving this summer by Ryanair,
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I was involved in a relatively serious incident at one of the very major spanish airports in the not to distant past.
The situation was exacerbated acutely by two ground controllers who could not understand the most fundamental terms of standard phraseology. The MOR was sat on for nearly a year and the response was a token gesture and a whitewash. No one with any genuine interest in safety or prevention could have responded that way.
The Cork crash is another classic example of zero standards, zero implementation, and zero regulation on their home soil but they want to point the finger at Ryanair?
The system in Spain is rotten with corruption.
It pains me to agree with Racedo, but I have to agree, you simply could not make this stuff up.
The situation was exacerbated acutely by two ground controllers who could not understand the most fundamental terms of standard phraseology. The MOR was sat on for nearly a year and the response was a token gesture and a whitewash. No one with any genuine interest in safety or prevention could have responded that way.
The Cork crash is another classic example of zero standards, zero implementation, and zero regulation on their home soil but they want to point the finger at Ryanair?
The system in Spain is rotten with corruption.
It pains me to agree with Racedo, but I have to agree, you simply could not make this stuff up.
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Could the Spanish, if they so wished, unilaterally ban Ryanair's aircraft from its airports or even from its airspace?
My guess is that within the framework of the EU, they couldn't, as such a ban would have to be mandated from Brussels where all power seems to reside.
My guess is that within the framework of the EU, they couldn't, as such a ban would have to be mandated from Brussels where all power seems to reside.
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You have to understand the mindset of the present Franco inspired mob resident in Madrid. They are in the doo big time so to try to deflect their fellow countrymen, many of whom in the public service havent been paid for the last year, they are constantly looking for foreign scapegoats (have a look at whats going on towards Gibraltar for a flavour). O Leary is the first of many. Sadly though,Ms Pastor and her ilk, are not overly bright and they havent realised what they are taking on.
This is the sort of fight Mikey relishes and on this occasion I wish him well. The view from the terraces should be entertaining and I know who my moneys on..
This is the sort of fight Mikey relishes and on this occasion I wish him well. The view from the terraces should be entertaining and I know who my moneys on..
Table
No as then breach of numerous European treaties and open themselves up for suing in court with penalties likely to be in millions.
On what basis would they ban them ?
Safety ? Given their airlines own record it could be a problem making that one stand up.
No as then breach of numerous European treaties and open themselves up for suing in court with penalties likely to be in millions.
On what basis would they ban them ?
Safety ? Given their airlines own record it could be a problem making that one stand up.
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SEPLA goes to war with Ryanair
The whole Ryanair organizational culture is reflected in the situation in Spain
Is it fair competition to have all these pilots who work and live in Spain and dont pay any taxes in Spain ?
Typical of Ryanair to threaten with legal action and court cases as they are doing in Spain. SEPLA will be happy to court with Ryanair. ( Yeah they know they are dealing with, but in Spanish courts ) MOL is constantly mocking EU rules and taking advantage of loopholes to beat down his own employees. Ryanair spends a lot of money lobbying in Brussels.
Ryanair MOL enjoys bullying people, he gets a kick out of it.
I say good for Sepla and the Spanish government for attacking Ryanair.
Does O´Leary deny that he pays bonuses to his base Captains for fuel savings ?
Does he deny that these Ryanair base Captains call up Captains if they take too much fuel ? These base Captains have a financial interest in pilots in their base taking less fuel.
MOL are Ryanair pilots scared and intimidated ? By your draconian methods ?
The way Ryanair treats pilots and people makes me sick. Forcing pilots to sign contracts with worse conditions. Its all been said before on other threads.
Why have so many pilots left Ryanair ? Hasn´t the experience level of his Captains dropped significantly ?
Recently COPAC, the controllers, consumer groups and SEPLA have all come out against Ryanair in Spain
Have a look at this Spanish link and Google translate it you dont speak Spanish
Pilotos y controladores acusan a Ryanair de operar en el límite legal
Is it fair competition to have all these pilots who work and live in Spain and dont pay any taxes in Spain ?
Typical of Ryanair to threaten with legal action and court cases as they are doing in Spain. SEPLA will be happy to court with Ryanair. ( Yeah they know they are dealing with, but in Spanish courts ) MOL is constantly mocking EU rules and taking advantage of loopholes to beat down his own employees. Ryanair spends a lot of money lobbying in Brussels.
Ryanair MOL enjoys bullying people, he gets a kick out of it.
I say good for Sepla and the Spanish government for attacking Ryanair.
Does O´Leary deny that he pays bonuses to his base Captains for fuel savings ?
Does he deny that these Ryanair base Captains call up Captains if they take too much fuel ? These base Captains have a financial interest in pilots in their base taking less fuel.
MOL are Ryanair pilots scared and intimidated ? By your draconian methods ?
The way Ryanair treats pilots and people makes me sick. Forcing pilots to sign contracts with worse conditions. Its all been said before on other threads.
Why have so many pilots left Ryanair ? Hasn´t the experience level of his Captains dropped significantly ?
Recently COPAC, the controllers, consumer groups and SEPLA have all come out against Ryanair in Spain
Have a look at this Spanish link and Google translate it you dont speak Spanish
Pilotos y controladores acusan a Ryanair de operar en el límite legal
Last edited by Jimmy Hoffa Rocks; 12th Sep 2012 at 23:38.
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@jimmy......
if you would run a company (doesn't have to be an airline) you would also like your employees to be efficient and not throwing away your money
the only difference is that if Ryanair does something it's seen as unethical or not normal
if the basecaptain calls his captains about the fuel they take i think its the basecaptain who puts pressure on the captains and not MOL
I haven't met them all but not every BC is like that.
by the way this topic is about the false claim by the Spanish government that RYR wouldn't be safe and not by the weird methods they use to try to make their company more efficient
if you would run a company (doesn't have to be an airline) you would also like your employees to be efficient and not throwing away your money
the only difference is that if Ryanair does something it's seen as unethical or not normal
if the basecaptain calls his captains about the fuel they take i think its the basecaptain who puts pressure on the captains and not MOL
I haven't met them all but not every BC is like that.
by the way this topic is about the false claim by the Spanish government that RYR wouldn't be safe and not by the weird methods they use to try to make their company more efficient
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I think if the Spanish authorities are genuinely concerned about safety, they should address the woeful inadequacies of their own ATC system first. It's the worst in Europe.
They won't of course, because the whole thing is politically driven.
I don't like agreeing with MOL (it brings me out in a rash) but on this occasion I think he makes some fair points.
That doesn't detract from RYR's own in-house problems which, really, are a separate issue.
They won't of course, because the whole thing is politically driven.
I don't like agreeing with MOL (it brings me out in a rash) but on this occasion I think he makes some fair points.
That doesn't detract from RYR's own in-house problems which, really, are a separate issue.
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if you would run a company (doesn't have to be an airline) you would also like your employees to be efficient and not throwing away your money
the only difference is that if Ryanair does something it's seen as unethical or not normal
the only difference is that if Ryanair does something it's seen as unethical or not normal
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While our AESA system is surely quite incompetent, cumbersome and needs a full clean up, I would not say it is corrupt.
I have been "sufferning" AESA, previously known as Aviacion Civil for 20 years and belive me I am not fan of them but among all their troubles and incompetence I do not belive corruption is one of them.
Of course like any European organization you may find some rotten apple, but corruption is not a common trend here at least I have not witnessed it here in 20 years with one exception that is now on Court involving a helicopter accident.
Regarding Ryanair, as a pilot working and flying in Spain I am aware of their contant abuse of the "fuel critical" concept and the rest of irregularities that are well known.
We do have other "low cost" airlines operating in Spain, most noticeably Air Berlin for instance and you will rarely find a single complain or incident related to them. And they surely have a large operation here.
This is not a problem of low cost or if the company is Irish, German or Spanish, at least not for us.
Like most of us, we are already working for "international" consortiums. so flag "pride" has not much relevance anylonger on this matters.
However I see with surprise how some people from Ireland and maybe from the UK belive this is a problem generated here because Ryanair is not Spanish and it is taking a really large chunk of the market.
I am a professional pilot for many years and one thing I learned long ago is that while flying there are no flags. Either you do it good or not. Accidents and inccidents do not take into account nationalities.
I wonder how you would feel if for instance a Polish Airline for instance, begins operations in Ireland or the UK, replacing one of your local airlines by collecting public money from the local goverment and lowering prices so your local airlines cannot compete while recording an unprecedent number of inccidents per year. Maybe then the "flag" factor would have relevance for some.
As I said, for me as professional I do not care about the carrier flag but that the operation is performed with the best margin of safety. While probably Ryanair is operating legally most of the time, walking the fine thread between legality and what aeronautical common sense dictates it does not mean they are operating with the same safety levels of other carriers. They exploit the interpretation of the regulations, regulations that were once wrote based in that safety instead economic benefit would be used to interpret them.
A serious mistake from our European Aeronautical legislators.
I mentioned as example another low cost airline that is an example of safe and reliable operation like Air Berlin that besides being safe they treat customers like customers, not like cattle. They get not public money help, they are efficient, safe and respectful.
They are not Spanish but surely welcomed here.
Can you see the difference?
Regarding the actual situation it is clear that only the Irish Civil Aviation have the final saying about Ryanair AOC. And from what I think, they are pretty happy with Ryanair and not concerned at all. So it is Mr O'Leary that seems not concerned at all about any possible action from from Irish Authorities. Pretty interesting, isn't it?
However if the Spanish Goverment really wants to put some order here, and that issue stil remains to be seen, they can simple remove all public money support for Ryanair and make sure that each flight is carefully inspected before take off by an inspection team. Same goes with a Ramp check to all Ryanair aircraft that lands after a "fuel critical" call to verify the fuel content in tanks.
If Ryanair wants to keep on treating their customer as cattle, this is ok with me, but at least do it safe.
EASA must review all regulation considering that in the future, operators would constantly adhere to the very legal minimmus allowed because they are allowed not because they would be safe or not on those particular conditions.
As I said actual regulations stated some minimums to be used by operators if conditions allowed a safe use of those minimums.
Now we do see operators constantly using the minimums regardless this may be safe or sound, but just because they are allowed.
Regulations MUST be redone to prevent this attitude in the future.
IMHO
I have been "sufferning" AESA, previously known as Aviacion Civil for 20 years and belive me I am not fan of them but among all their troubles and incompetence I do not belive corruption is one of them.
Of course like any European organization you may find some rotten apple, but corruption is not a common trend here at least I have not witnessed it here in 20 years with one exception that is now on Court involving a helicopter accident.
Regarding Ryanair, as a pilot working and flying in Spain I am aware of their contant abuse of the "fuel critical" concept and the rest of irregularities that are well known.
We do have other "low cost" airlines operating in Spain, most noticeably Air Berlin for instance and you will rarely find a single complain or incident related to them. And they surely have a large operation here.
This is not a problem of low cost or if the company is Irish, German or Spanish, at least not for us.
Like most of us, we are already working for "international" consortiums. so flag "pride" has not much relevance anylonger on this matters.
However I see with surprise how some people from Ireland and maybe from the UK belive this is a problem generated here because Ryanair is not Spanish and it is taking a really large chunk of the market.
I am a professional pilot for many years and one thing I learned long ago is that while flying there are no flags. Either you do it good or not. Accidents and inccidents do not take into account nationalities.
I wonder how you would feel if for instance a Polish Airline for instance, begins operations in Ireland or the UK, replacing one of your local airlines by collecting public money from the local goverment and lowering prices so your local airlines cannot compete while recording an unprecedent number of inccidents per year. Maybe then the "flag" factor would have relevance for some.
As I said, for me as professional I do not care about the carrier flag but that the operation is performed with the best margin of safety. While probably Ryanair is operating legally most of the time, walking the fine thread between legality and what aeronautical common sense dictates it does not mean they are operating with the same safety levels of other carriers. They exploit the interpretation of the regulations, regulations that were once wrote based in that safety instead economic benefit would be used to interpret them.
A serious mistake from our European Aeronautical legislators.
I mentioned as example another low cost airline that is an example of safe and reliable operation like Air Berlin that besides being safe they treat customers like customers, not like cattle. They get not public money help, they are efficient, safe and respectful.
They are not Spanish but surely welcomed here.
Can you see the difference?
Regarding the actual situation it is clear that only the Irish Civil Aviation have the final saying about Ryanair AOC. And from what I think, they are pretty happy with Ryanair and not concerned at all. So it is Mr O'Leary that seems not concerned at all about any possible action from from Irish Authorities. Pretty interesting, isn't it?
However if the Spanish Goverment really wants to put some order here, and that issue stil remains to be seen, they can simple remove all public money support for Ryanair and make sure that each flight is carefully inspected before take off by an inspection team. Same goes with a Ramp check to all Ryanair aircraft that lands after a "fuel critical" call to verify the fuel content in tanks.
If Ryanair wants to keep on treating their customer as cattle, this is ok with me, but at least do it safe.
EASA must review all regulation considering that in the future, operators would constantly adhere to the very legal minimmus allowed because they are allowed not because they would be safe or not on those particular conditions.
As I said actual regulations stated some minimums to be used by operators if conditions allowed a safe use of those minimums.
Now we do see operators constantly using the minimums regardless this may be safe or sound, but just because they are allowed.
Regulations MUST be redone to prevent this attitude in the future.
IMHO
Last edited by Furia; 13th Sep 2012 at 12:03.
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Originally Posted by Furia
I wonder how you would feel if for instance a Polish Airline for instance, begins operations in Ireland or the UK, replacing one of your local airlines by collecting public money from the local goverment and lowering prices so your local airlines cannot compete
while recording an unprecedent number of inccidents per year.
Maybe a more stringent oversight from Spanish authorities would indeed make sense - and not only towards Ryanair, but also towards Spanish carriers. After all, they killed way more people in the past 10 years than Ryanair did.
Last edited by cockpitvisit; 13th Sep 2012 at 12:21.
Furia
You make some interesting points but giving Spanish regional Govt lent millions to Spanair where there was no possibility of it ever getting repaid or getting any benefit. The nice shiny new airports built that now resemble nice car parks with no passengers.
Claiming Ryanair is the problem because Regional Govts incentivise them to bring in passengers seems like a good use of resources.
Spanair ................no taxes paid and no money earned for that investment
New Airports..................loans still being repaid no passengers or income received
Incentivising Ryanair.............passengers who spend money arrive in Spain, jobs and taxes
As for using Air Berlin as the comparison, they have had their own share of incidents including fatigued crew declaring a Panpan
Incident: Air Berlin A332 at Munich on May 5th 2012, tired crew declared PAN
Also their passenger numbers are dropping significantly this year being 5%, 6% and 5% down over last 3 months.
You make some interesting points but giving Spanish regional Govt lent millions to Spanair where there was no possibility of it ever getting repaid or getting any benefit. The nice shiny new airports built that now resemble nice car parks with no passengers.
Claiming Ryanair is the problem because Regional Govts incentivise them to bring in passengers seems like a good use of resources.
Spanair ................no taxes paid and no money earned for that investment
New Airports..................loans still being repaid no passengers or income received
Incentivising Ryanair.............passengers who spend money arrive in Spain, jobs and taxes
As for using Air Berlin as the comparison, they have had their own share of incidents including fatigued crew declaring a Panpan
Incident: Air Berlin A332 at Munich on May 5th 2012, tired crew declared PAN
Also their passenger numbers are dropping significantly this year being 5%, 6% and 5% down over last 3 months.
This question should be directed at the local government. Why are they giving public money to a foreign airline and not to local ones? And if both foreign and local airlines pocket public money, it is a fair game.
I find this to be a very interesting thread. I simply cannot believe that the Spanish aviation system is anything but 100% honest and above board.
It rather reminds me of a time when I flew for a company that sub-contracted to a much larger organisation. Almost on a nightly basis, they would be looking for a crew to fly a trip that none of us could legally accomplish and still remain within JAR FTLs.
However, Pedro the Pilot would always step up to the starting block and manage to get the job done.
Although Spain was supposed to be JAR-compliant. I was told that they worked to BEES instead of JARs.
For those of you who are still puzzling about what BEES means, I was told that it was "Brown Envelope Extension System".
Needless to say. I never saw a brown envelope so I could not possibly comment on the veracity of the foregoing but it was always an EC-registered aircraft that accomplished the impossible.
I am sure that this was just a coincidence.
It rather reminds me of a time when I flew for a company that sub-contracted to a much larger organisation. Almost on a nightly basis, they would be looking for a crew to fly a trip that none of us could legally accomplish and still remain within JAR FTLs.
However, Pedro the Pilot would always step up to the starting block and manage to get the job done.
Although Spain was supposed to be JAR-compliant. I was told that they worked to BEES instead of JARs.
For those of you who are still puzzling about what BEES means, I was told that it was "Brown Envelope Extension System".
Needless to say. I never saw a brown envelope so I could not possibly comment on the veracity of the foregoing but it was always an EC-registered aircraft that accomplished the impossible.
I am sure that this was just a coincidence.
As I said, for me as professional I do not care about the carrier flag but that the operation is performed with the best margin of safety. While probably Ryanair is operating legally most of the time, walking the fine thread between legality and what aeronautical common sense dictates it does not mean they are operating with the same safety levels of other carriers. They exploit the interpretation of the regulations, regulations that were once wrote based in that safety instead economic benefit would be used to interpret them.
A serious mistake from our European Aeronautical legislators.
I mentioned as example another low cost airline that is an example of safe and reliable operation like Air Berlin that besides being safe they treat customers like customers, not like cattle. They get not public money help, they are efficient, safe and respectful.
They are not Spanish but surely welcomed here.
Can you see the difference?
A serious mistake from our European Aeronautical legislators.
I mentioned as example another low cost airline that is an example of safe and reliable operation like Air Berlin that besides being safe they treat customers like customers, not like cattle. They get not public money help, they are efficient, safe and respectful.
They are not Spanish but surely welcomed here.
Can you see the difference?
Equally whether or not you think Ryanair treat passengers as "cattle" is debatable (and what do we mean by that?) - whether or not they do so has little bearing on safety (not saying I agree that's the way it should be though!).
FR are the first ones to breach the law...
Whilst I personally don't like many aspects of Ryanair's modus operandi this seems to me to be much more of a political battle which is being fought by Spain. If you decide you don't like somebody then you can find all sorts of ways to make life difficult for them.
In many ways Ryanair have been pioneers and still are. They are therefore, quite naturally, protecting themselves from any deadly arrows. Time will tell who will win.