Ryanair claim upheld
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Furia,
The British know all about it, Ryanair is an Irish airline and has done just that in Britain. Separate countries remember? So far the British haven't attempted to shut it down for spurious security and safety reasons.
As for the most recent Ryanair 'incidents'. I found this most interesting from AV Herald:
I've underlined the relevent comment. It appears there was divine interevention for the Spanish operators. Far be for me to suggest that Spanish airlines would continue into weather that a non Spanish operator might consider dangerous.
It's seems to me that when the Spanish get their house in order. They might be better placed to criticise the likes of Ryanair.
I wonder how you would feel if for instance a Polish Airline for instance, begins operations in Ireland or the UK, replacing one of your local airlines by collecting public money from the local goverment and lowering prices so your local airlines cannot compete while recording an unprecedent number of inccidents per year. Maybe then the "flag" factor would have relevance for some.
As for the most recent Ryanair 'incidents'. I found this most interesting from AV Herald:
Beginning 19:52Z until 20:48Z a number of aircraft on approach to Madrid aborted their approaches and went around including all non-Spanish operators, except for eight flights of Spanish only operators which continued their flights for landings on Madrid's runways 18. The Aviation Herald is still monitoring these flights, that landed between 19:52Z and 20:10Z.
It's seems to me that when the Spanish get their house in order. They might be better placed to criticise the likes of Ryanair.
Last edited by bluecode; 13th Sep 2012 at 14:44.
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JW411
You know Pedro? He is a good guy
Reminds me of tenths of Johns that I have met who also go beyond limits for envelopes, or more often for nothing at all.
As a matter of fact for each spanish pilot "of fortune" out there in the world, there are 200 british ones, and they don't behave like BA pilots. More like Sir Henry Morgan (before he became 'Sir'). At home they behave differently, though.
Spanish administration sucks, that's 100% true. Our country is a mess, full of corrupt politicians, a corrupt king and institutions rotten to the bone, and about to split in 2 or three pieces. The civil aviation is not corrupt because there is little or nothing they can steal. Other institutions in aviation do (ghost airports).
Still I prefer to live in Spain, or even hit my testicles with a hammer than living in the UK. Every time I go there, in the first day I think to myself "What a country, what an efficiency...". But a few days later I learn that this is not true at all and I end up pissed with England.
I'm sure that you guys would think differently about this issue if it was a spanish airline doing in the UK what RYR is doing here. And I am 100% sure you would find the way to ban it.
Oh, how I wish that Assange escapes from the UKA!!!!
You know Pedro? He is a good guy
Reminds me of tenths of Johns that I have met who also go beyond limits for envelopes, or more often for nothing at all.
As a matter of fact for each spanish pilot "of fortune" out there in the world, there are 200 british ones, and they don't behave like BA pilots. More like Sir Henry Morgan (before he became 'Sir'). At home they behave differently, though.
Spanish administration sucks, that's 100% true. Our country is a mess, full of corrupt politicians, a corrupt king and institutions rotten to the bone, and about to split in 2 or three pieces. The civil aviation is not corrupt because there is little or nothing they can steal. Other institutions in aviation do (ghost airports).
Still I prefer to live in Spain, or even hit my testicles with a hammer than living in the UK. Every time I go there, in the first day I think to myself "What a country, what an efficiency...". But a few days later I learn that this is not true at all and I end up pissed with England.
I'm sure that you guys would think differently about this issue if it was a spanish airline doing in the UK what RYR is doing here. And I am 100% sure you would find the way to ban it.
Oh, how I wish that Assange escapes from the UKA!!!!
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Ladies & Gentleman.
We can discuss about these incidents forever. Thats why this forum is intended.
But please, whoever operates out of Spain knows that its a JOKE
The controllers on the job are the worst ever! I have been operating for years out of Spain. Every time the are just identifying and are not willing to help us in need of headings or levels. The give basic IFR separation and who ever flies in this third world country knows that separation is not always for granted.
TA& RA are happening everyday. ''esproceed estandard'' They dont realize that they are making there own airways congested Climbing and descending traffic are almost always in conflict. Instead of doing there jobs as of everywhere else in the world. The just dont coordinate or separate. My point is not to go off topic to much. But ladies and gentleman; flying under spanish controllers is very dangerous. This should be adressed to the media and should be under investigation! We as pilot's are on our own. Helping them almost everyday. In return, we get no service in return. I wonder if they understand this. I guess not.. They speak there own language which is endangering situational awareness for foreign pilots. Following their own ATC procedures which is always a surprise. They are PLAYING GAMES WITH FAIR PAYNG PASSENGERS LIVES. Just because the country is broke and their jobs are on the streets and the government want to privatize the sector. The dont want to give in and trying to abuse the system. Just providing basic services..
This should be addressed to the media!!!!!
We can discuss about these incidents forever. Thats why this forum is intended.
But please, whoever operates out of Spain knows that its a JOKE
The controllers on the job are the worst ever! I have been operating for years out of Spain. Every time the are just identifying and are not willing to help us in need of headings or levels. The give basic IFR separation and who ever flies in this third world country knows that separation is not always for granted.
TA& RA are happening everyday. ''esproceed estandard'' They dont realize that they are making there own airways congested Climbing and descending traffic are almost always in conflict. Instead of doing there jobs as of everywhere else in the world. The just dont coordinate or separate. My point is not to go off topic to much. But ladies and gentleman; flying under spanish controllers is very dangerous. This should be adressed to the media and should be under investigation! We as pilot's are on our own. Helping them almost everyday. In return, we get no service in return. I wonder if they understand this. I guess not.. They speak there own language which is endangering situational awareness for foreign pilots. Following their own ATC procedures which is always a surprise. They are PLAYING GAMES WITH FAIR PAYNG PASSENGERS LIVES. Just because the country is broke and their jobs are on the streets and the government want to privatize the sector. The dont want to give in and trying to abuse the system. Just providing basic services..
This should be addressed to the media!!!!!
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@ jimmy....
no diverting to an alternate is not efficient
as is taking too much extra fuel in case there might be a chance you have to hold which in case of TS can't be predicted cause most TS don't last longer then a few minutes
bare in mind that they are still taking the LEGAL required fuel on board so if it's not safe whole the world (or europe) should change the regulations
I've seen someone mentioning here that ryanair has more diversions than other airlines
is that in amount of events or in percentage of flights? it will make a huge difference for a company as big as ryanair
and also someone mentioned air berlin as a loco
someone told my that they upgraded to a full service carrier
can anyone shed a light on this?
FR threatens airports to move out if they don't get what they want?
how many companies are moving their factory's because they have to pay less in another country
and i'm sure that a lot of airports where ryanair flies to wouldn't be as big as they are now if they didn't had ryanair (if it's cheap enough people will fly to everywhere)
for the record i'm not saying that ryanair is a perfect company but it's definitely not as bad as some people make it look like
MOL might want to save as much money as possible but when it comes to safety ryanair does what they have to do
and in my opinion ryanair is safer than a lot of other airlines just because it's ryanair, if something happens the media jump on it like mad men even if nothing happens like in valencia a few weeks ago (yes, they had 3 emergencies, but they were still safe and legal and nothing happened at all. Normal atco's normally don't let planes that already diverted hold for almost an hour)
no diverting to an alternate is not efficient
as is taking too much extra fuel in case there might be a chance you have to hold which in case of TS can't be predicted cause most TS don't last longer then a few minutes
bare in mind that they are still taking the LEGAL required fuel on board so if it's not safe whole the world (or europe) should change the regulations
I've seen someone mentioning here that ryanair has more diversions than other airlines
is that in amount of events or in percentage of flights? it will make a huge difference for a company as big as ryanair
and also someone mentioned air berlin as a loco
someone told my that they upgraded to a full service carrier
can anyone shed a light on this?
FR threatens airports to move out if they don't get what they want?
how many companies are moving their factory's because they have to pay less in another country
and i'm sure that a lot of airports where ryanair flies to wouldn't be as big as they are now if they didn't had ryanair (if it's cheap enough people will fly to everywhere)
for the record i'm not saying that ryanair is a perfect company but it's definitely not as bad as some people make it look like
MOL might want to save as much money as possible but when it comes to safety ryanair does what they have to do
and in my opinion ryanair is safer than a lot of other airlines just because it's ryanair, if something happens the media jump on it like mad men even if nothing happens like in valencia a few weeks ago (yes, they had 3 emergencies, but they were still safe and legal and nothing happened at all. Normal atco's normally don't let planes that already diverted hold for almost an hour)
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Their fuel policy is perfectly legal.
But they have to know, RYR pilots, how it goes:
"I prefer you to divert from time to time than carry extra fuel every flight"
And the consequence for RYR pilos is that they have to make decisions earlier than "conventional" ones. With RYR fuel policy you can't wait to see who is the first to request diversion. You have to be the first. You have to know that if things get difficult in destination, there will be traffic jam in the alternate, so you have to divert early.
If they don't understand this, then that policy is dangerous.
They must understand it, and answer with this:
"OK, as you wish, I will divert every now and then, no problem"
RYR has the right to use that policy. It is their pilots who don't know how to apply it.
But they have to know, RYR pilots, how it goes:
"I prefer you to divert from time to time than carry extra fuel every flight"
And the consequence for RYR pilos is that they have to make decisions earlier than "conventional" ones. With RYR fuel policy you can't wait to see who is the first to request diversion. You have to be the first. You have to know that if things get difficult in destination, there will be traffic jam in the alternate, so you have to divert early.
If they don't understand this, then that policy is dangerous.
They must understand it, and answer with this:
"OK, as you wish, I will divert every now and then, no problem"
RYR has the right to use that policy. It is their pilots who don't know how to apply it.
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RYR in Spain
I see the usual B/S here regarding Ryanair. All the standard biases and ultimately envy that they are so successful - yes originally in the UK and Spain and Italy and every market they decide to enter. The reason is that they are far more efficient than any other carrier on the planet and millions of pax quite happily fly with them every year, including many pilots from full- service carriers positioning from home to work. Equally, the biases against Spanish ATC and other authorities. Of course they're not wonderful but any experienced operator is well used to their quirks. Is French ATC any better with both French and English used even on tower frequencies? Or Italian or any of the other non-English-speaking countries.
FR's personnel practices are an entirely separate matter that have no bearing on this issue as are their questionable attitudes to their customers. Despite these attitudes 75 million pax flew with them last year so they're clearly doing something right - no matter how distasteful many professional pilots may find their policies.
Returning to the fuel carrying issue. Ryanair flights do not depart without the minimum LEGAL fuel for the flight. There is absolutely nothing wrong with any employer urging/insisting on its pilots operating to the best possible levels of efficiency including not carrying extra fuel when it's not warranted. If that results in the occasional unexpected diversion then so be it. That's the price of the policy. I wonder how many pilots on this forum have any idea of the savings that are possible by not carrying that extra 500 kg for the wife and kids? Multiply that by the number of flights that FR operates per year and the numbers are staggering.
As a 35-year short-haul Captain I have always tried to operate first of all safely and secondly efficiently. When the weather and traffic is not an issue then flight plan fuel is fine for me. When there are issues I carry whatever I want and I'm perfectly well able to justify that to any manager - pilot or bean counter. That's one of the responsibilities of the LHS and if you can't handle the heat you shouldn't be in the kitchen.
If ICAO or EU-OPS mandates more contingency fuel or a more stringent method of calculating Flight Plan Fuel, then FR same as all the others will be obliged to comply. Until then they clearly want to continue to make money in a business that historically has had huge problems doing just that. As a by-product of their success and that of Easyjet there are far more pilots employed in their chosen profession than ever before in Europe. Long may that success continue so that our kids can have the opportunities we've had. The LCCs least of all can afford safety issues but FR has carried hundreds of millions of pax around Europe for 25 years without so much as a scratch on any of them. That can't happen by accident and I take my hat off to their fine professional pilots who clearly do a fine job day in, day out.
FR's personnel practices are an entirely separate matter that have no bearing on this issue as are their questionable attitudes to their customers. Despite these attitudes 75 million pax flew with them last year so they're clearly doing something right - no matter how distasteful many professional pilots may find their policies.
Returning to the fuel carrying issue. Ryanair flights do not depart without the minimum LEGAL fuel for the flight. There is absolutely nothing wrong with any employer urging/insisting on its pilots operating to the best possible levels of efficiency including not carrying extra fuel when it's not warranted. If that results in the occasional unexpected diversion then so be it. That's the price of the policy. I wonder how many pilots on this forum have any idea of the savings that are possible by not carrying that extra 500 kg for the wife and kids? Multiply that by the number of flights that FR operates per year and the numbers are staggering.
As a 35-year short-haul Captain I have always tried to operate first of all safely and secondly efficiently. When the weather and traffic is not an issue then flight plan fuel is fine for me. When there are issues I carry whatever I want and I'm perfectly well able to justify that to any manager - pilot or bean counter. That's one of the responsibilities of the LHS and if you can't handle the heat you shouldn't be in the kitchen.
If ICAO or EU-OPS mandates more contingency fuel or a more stringent method of calculating Flight Plan Fuel, then FR same as all the others will be obliged to comply. Until then they clearly want to continue to make money in a business that historically has had huge problems doing just that. As a by-product of their success and that of Easyjet there are far more pilots employed in their chosen profession than ever before in Europe. Long may that success continue so that our kids can have the opportunities we've had. The LCCs least of all can afford safety issues but FR has carried hundreds of millions of pax around Europe for 25 years without so much as a scratch on any of them. That can't happen by accident and I take my hat off to their fine professional pilots who clearly do a fine job day in, day out.
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LEMG - that has no relevance to this. Are you saying other carriers don't suffer technical diversions or problems? Try BA's 737 fleet if you want to see aircraft with technical problems - they're held together with blu tack.
6 incidents in 10 days
2 Engine issues
1 Turbulence
1 complaints from passengers of tick bites
Then again filtering on BA as a sample you only get
Cargo door not shut
Insufficient fuel to divert
Unreliable airspeed indicator
So which is more serious again ?
An airline having an incident and dealing with it is what I would expect to happen, but now people know about it because its published has people claiming there are safety issues.
Squawk
Minimum fuel is either legal or its not, suggesting that legal minimum is insufficient suggests you need to get in contact with regulatory authorities as you clearly know better than ALL the experts.
For the record can you detail the number of crashes over the last 10 years in Europe where the aircraft had NO fuel.
Minimum fuel is either legal or its not, suggesting that legal minimum is insufficient suggests you need to get in contact with regulatory authorities as you clearly know better than ALL the experts.
For the record can you detail the number of crashes over the last 10 years in Europe where the aircraft had NO fuel.
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I mentioned as example another low cost airline that is an example of safe and reliable operation like Air Berlin that besides being safe they treat customers like customers, not like cattle. They get not public money help, they are efficient, safe and respectful.
They are not Spanish but surely welcomed here.
Can you see the difference?
They are not Spanish but surely welcomed here.
Can you see the difference?
Living in Spain, I bear witness to the daily barrage on one particular airline. And it is daily & appears to have consumed the media in a way I never thought possible. From national airwaves & print media, through to newspapers & television for the autonomous regions, even a blind man could see that there is orchestration going on here with the message being hammered home again and again. Initially I thought the media were latching on as it was August & the political sphere was on vacaciones. Alas, it would seem not to be the case. Am I cynical to think it's all an effort to drive passengers into the arms of the fledgling Iberia Express?
For example, there has not been one mention, that I have seen/heard, of the KLM flight that diverted to Valencia along with the two FR aircraft on the night this whole episode began in July.
For the record, I've no afiliation to Ryanair. I fly with them as I feel secure on board & they get me to where I want to go, more often than not on time, at a good price. My tuppence worth.
Carry on, as you were
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Originally Posted by S-7600
Yes I'm sorry there IS a problem with management bullying pilots not to take contingency fuel that MAY be necessary
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Two Ryanair incidents in 24 hours.
I've actually lost count. Madrid ? Barcelona ? Tenerife ? Valencia ?
From watching Spanish TV it would appear that no other loco airline has had or is having (or will ever have, in all probibility) any problems whatsoever.
I've actually lost count. Madrid ? Barcelona ? Tenerife ? Valencia ?
From watching Spanish TV it would appear that no other loco airline has had or is having (or will ever have, in all probibility) any problems whatsoever.
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Truth absolutely does not exist.
Truch is what the media reports.
For what it's worth (and it's being said elsewhere on PPRuNe) that Ryanair's marketing tactics have annoyed far too many people in Spain for them to have any friends here.
Give us a subsidy !
No
All right, we'll cancel 75% of our flights to Girona.
We give in, we will pay you a subsidy based on your bringing XXX million passengers to Girona this year
All right, we agree to that
One Year Later
You are x million short of the agreed number of passengers, so we are not going to subsidise your landing fees/marketing any more !
All right, we'll cancel 75% of our flights to Girona
Repeat this often enough and the worms will turn.....
Truch is what the media reports.
For what it's worth (and it's being said elsewhere on PPRuNe) that Ryanair's marketing tactics have annoyed far too many people in Spain for them to have any friends here.
Give us a subsidy !
No
All right, we'll cancel 75% of our flights to Girona.
We give in, we will pay you a subsidy based on your bringing XXX million passengers to Girona this year
All right, we agree to that
One Year Later
You are x million short of the agreed number of passengers, so we are not going to subsidise your landing fees/marketing any more !
All right, we'll cancel 75% of our flights to Girona
Repeat this often enough and the worms will turn.....
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It was still rather more worthwhile doling out public money to Ryanair than Spanair. . . . doesn't make it any more palatable for the taxpayer, as I am sure there were other "interests" more pressing there than Ryanairs wellbeing.
Catalan Govt played poker with a way more accomplished player, a bit juvenile to act as they do now because they were naive enough to see Ryanair as a partner rather than an opponent. Where € are concerned Ryanair have no partners & no friends. . . . anyone who thinks/thought otherwise hasn't done their homework. All this cr@p in the Press is merely ineffectual payback for that. Don't see any drop in their pax figures in Spain, so hopefully the public can see all this for what it is. . . . someone (other than Ryanair for once) throwing their toys out of the pram.
Catalan Govt played poker with a way more accomplished player, a bit juvenile to act as they do now because they were naive enough to see Ryanair as a partner rather than an opponent. Where € are concerned Ryanair have no partners & no friends. . . . anyone who thinks/thought otherwise hasn't done their homework. All this cr@p in the Press is merely ineffectual payback for that. Don't see any drop in their pax figures in Spain, so hopefully the public can see all this for what it is. . . . someone (other than Ryanair for once) throwing their toys out of the pram.
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Don't see any drop in their pax figures in Spain, so hopefully the public can see all this for what it is
Girona is a pawn which can be discarded at will, with FR shifting flights to Barça. Trouble is once pax's have to go to Barça, instead of Girona where FR had a manopoly, they can look around and see much more comfortable loco's such as easyJet, or pay a smidgen more (if they are lucky or have luggage) and fly BA.
"The public" in this area - mainly British and Germans - can indeed see all this for what it is.