Air Uganda, crew forgot to set flaps?
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orion1210
What are the advantages of a flapless or reduced flap takeoff and when would you elect to carry one out?
Same for landing config?
What are the advantages of a flapless or reduced flap takeoff and when would you elect to carry one out?
Same for landing config?
The same is true regarding flap setting for landing. More flap = less runway required but less climb; less flap = better missed approach/rejected landing climb but more runway required. Usually this is less of an issue, but once in a while a reduced flap setting is required due to obstacles in the missed approach path.
The flap setting used is based on whether runway length or climb performance is the most limiting factor.
Last edited by BobnSpike; 28th Aug 2012 at 22:00.
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Actually the lesson learned from the DFW 727 was...
When viewing the left front side of the fuselage, the front left main cabin door was open. That in itself would not be that remarkable, except that the way the fuselage was laying on the ground, the bottom of the door was buried in the dirt. There was no way for that door to be in that position unless it was opened before the aircraft came to a complete stop.
The Flight Attendant sitting in the jump seat next to the door swore that she did not open the door until the aircraft came to a complete stop. Then there seemed to be some confusing on just who actually opened the door.
After some reviewing all the information we had access to, we decided that the FA sitting next to door had to have opened that door before the aircraft came to a stop, but that she just didn't remember it.
I went to 727 type school shortly after that accident, you can figure out the one thing that was really drilled into us.
But you are quite correct OK, if they would have left it on the ground until they ran out of runway, then rotated, it would have flown. Same type deal with the AA DC-10 accident at ORD, if they would have just held the attitude they had, it would have flown.
But, that's all 20/20 hindsight, easy to say or write when you're sitting at a desk.
lights
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Nairobi - November 1974 - Lufthansa 747 crashed after take-off because crew failed to set LE flaps.
Orion and BobnSpike,
If I may, another reason is to preserve the undercarriage and the airframe. On a long runway the aircraft will probably eventually get airborne but at a much higher speed. Unless the runway is glass-smooth every little surface irregularity will be very forcefully transmitted to the hull.
On the 767 mentioned earlier there must be a weight/lift/temp etc curve that allows the flapless takeoff procedure, i.e. with certain weights and on certain runways it's allowed.
My only experience of such a takeoff was years ago on a Vasp 737-200, GIG/CGH, between 30% and 50% full. It took ages, rattled and shook like a Model-T Ford on a rocky road, overhead bins opened and handluggage fell out.
I am not a pilot nor am I any longer associated with aviation. But I'd venture a guess that a takeoff like the one just mentioned would take a toll on the hydraulics - and much more - equivalent to several years of normal operation.
If I may, another reason is to preserve the undercarriage and the airframe. On a long runway the aircraft will probably eventually get airborne but at a much higher speed. Unless the runway is glass-smooth every little surface irregularity will be very forcefully transmitted to the hull.
On the 767 mentioned earlier there must be a weight/lift/temp etc curve that allows the flapless takeoff procedure, i.e. with certain weights and on certain runways it's allowed.
My only experience of such a takeoff was years ago on a Vasp 737-200, GIG/CGH, between 30% and 50% full. It took ages, rattled and shook like a Model-T Ford on a rocky road, overhead bins opened and handluggage fell out.
I am not a pilot nor am I any longer associated with aviation. But I'd venture a guess that a takeoff like the one just mentioned would take a toll on the hydraulics - and much more - equivalent to several years of normal operation.
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Respectfully, airframe wear and tear is not considered in takeoff or landing performance calculations in the commercial world. It's about performance and payload.
Last edited by BobnSpike; 29th Aug 2012 at 01:37.
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I can only imagine what would happen if something similar had been done at my company. What the hell was this crew thinking?
At the very least, I'd be running everything after the after start checklist. If you forgot to set the flaps, what else may you have forgotten?
At the very least, I'd be running everything after the after start checklist. If you forgot to set the flaps, what else may you have forgotten?
BelArgUSA used to warn to always check the three killers Trim, Flaps and Spoilers!!! Screw SOPS there's NEVER an excuse for this!!!
http://www.pprune.org/3648705-post15.html
http://www.pprune.org/3648705-post15.html
Last edited by Pugilistic Animus; 29th Aug 2012 at 03:09.
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BelArgUSA used to warn to always check the three killers Trim, Flaps and Spoilers!!! Screw SOPS there's NEVER an excuse for this!!!
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We got totally distracted on the descent in a 757 one day and at 200 ft did my usual gear, flaps and speed brake armed check. No speedbrakes armed and not one item had been done on the mechanical checklist. Since the FO was landing I whipped through the items in about 10 seconds before touchdown. I couldn't believe we forgot the checklist but we did.
Bubbers44
We've all made those types of errors; we've all gotten something into the red arc on one of the guages...but we must never do what this crew did as it defies airmanship totally...There's no excuse for forgettingto set TO flaps---NONE
We've all made those types of errors; we've all gotten something into the red arc on one of the guages...but we must never do what this crew did as it defies airmanship totally...There's no excuse for forgettingto set TO flaps---NONE
dwshimoda ...Config warning should NOT be relied upon it has failed in the past---I forgot the case but best to pretend there is no such animal IMHO
Why did they continue?...They were muppets!!!...
Why did they continue?...They were muppets!!!...
Last edited by Pugilistic Animus; 29th Aug 2012 at 06:26.
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...There's no excuse for forgettingto set TO flaps---NONE
What is unforgivable IMO is that they continued the takeoff.
Check Airman I disagree
yes, In some cases distractions can interrupt a flow or cause you to miss a minor item...that shouldn't kill anyone
But IMHO if it's critical Item in an extremely critical but optional phase of flight---You make sure you check those critical items, if you have to re-run a check list then you do...but Pitot heat,if not automatic, Anti Ice pressuriztion performance or whatever else may kill you must never be comprimised just to make a takeoff---up aginst slots and duty time limitations? oh well company's problem better late than dead---
Now right before a takeoff we know that there are three well known killers--- airmanship dictates that you STOP THAT AIRPLANE!!! and check them...whether you miss your slot, or not...we've repeated these mistakes long enough to know they can be unforgiving...
WE NEED TO JUST STOP!
yes, In some cases distractions can interrupt a flow or cause you to miss a minor item...that shouldn't kill anyone
But IMHO if it's critical Item in an extremely critical but optional phase of flight---You make sure you check those critical items, if you have to re-run a check list then you do...but Pitot heat,if not automatic, Anti Ice pressuriztion performance or whatever else may kill you must never be comprimised just to make a takeoff---up aginst slots and duty time limitations? oh well company's problem better late than dead---
Now right before a takeoff we know that there are three well known killers--- airmanship dictates that you STOP THAT AIRPLANE!!! and check them...whether you miss your slot, or not...we've repeated these mistakes long enough to know they can be unforgiving...
WE NEED TO JUST STOP!
He didn't Say you can't forget to set flap, he said there is no excuse, and he's right. Actually....I can think of one excuse, if you joined a rubbish airline that paid lip service to training and safety when you were 19 years old, and continued through to a command in an airline devoid of any decent safety culture, and then forgot to set the flaps, I would say it is your management teams fault for not wearing the cost of decent training.
.....and continued through to a command in an airline devoid of any decent safety culture, and then forgot to set the flaps, I would say it is your management teams fault for not wearing the cost of decent training.
Last edited by fox niner; 29th Aug 2012 at 07:37.
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^^^^ Like what he said, And don't forget that the tyro Aviator is able to tap into many lifetimes' wisdom and experience, via PPRuNe,just for the cost of an internet connection.
probably the best bargain in their lifetime.. As the man said....NO EXCUSE.
probably the best bargain in their lifetime.. As the man said....NO EXCUSE.