Ryanair fender bender
I REALLY SHOULDN'T BE HERE
Joined: Dec 2005
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From: TOD
is it feasible that the crew of the 767 didn't notice it?
Yes, feasible depending on the severity of impact. I remember an incident in MAN about 7 years ago with a similar mismatch in size, the crew of the larger aircraft (the moving one in this case) felt an shudder but it was not immediately obvious that there had been a collision. The stationary aircraft in that case were immediately aware of the impact.
Link for AAIB Report.
sr
Yes, feasible depending on the severity of impact. I remember an incident in MAN about 7 years ago with a similar mismatch in size, the crew of the larger aircraft (the moving one in this case) felt an shudder but it was not immediately obvious that there had been a collision. The stationary aircraft in that case were immediately aware of the impact.
Link for AAIB Report.
sr
Last edited by speedrestriction; 30th July 2012 at 08:25. Reason: link included
Joined: Jan 2008
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From: Reading, UK
Is this a public document (and if so, is there a link?) or are you referring to a company-internal report?
English translation P211 onwards.
Joined: Jul 2002
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From: Confusio Helvetica
Very interesting report.
Three aircraft (AA, FR, AF) cleared to the holding point, without further specification. AA is first in line, and is cleared to G3. FR comes up behind, turns a touch, trying to squeeze around, probably hits the elevator (the report explicitly states that the collision could not be detected on the acceleration data from either aircraft), and (when the F/O tells her to stop) stops.
Several passengers on the right side of the aircraft start speaking excitedly in Spanish. One tells the FA in English that there has been a collision. The FA goes to the Purser and asks what to do.
Meanwhile, the Captain looks out the F/O's window to verify visually separation. ATC asks them to proceed to spot G1. The reply (no mention of whether F/O or Capt.), as transcribed: "Can we just stand by if you like in the aisle before to (garbled) start clearance... to after"
The FA calls the Captain with a "Only for your information..."; the Captain gives the FA a response that it not understood.
ATC calls again, asking them to move to G1, so that AF behind them can go to G2. They reply: "Could I wait and move forward if it fits... to make sure clearance"
Thirty seconds later, AF calls and asks ATC to "Confirm that they are moving forward so that we can pass behind."
AA, hearing this, moves 10-15 feet closer to the holding point.
From the Ryanair crew's statement:
Three aircraft (AA, FR, AF) cleared to the holding point, without further specification. AA is first in line, and is cleared to G3. FR comes up behind, turns a touch, trying to squeeze around, probably hits the elevator (the report explicitly states that the collision could not be detected on the acceleration data from either aircraft), and (when the F/O tells her to stop) stops.
Several passengers on the right side of the aircraft start speaking excitedly in Spanish. One tells the FA in English that there has been a collision. The FA goes to the Purser and asks what to do.
Meanwhile, the Captain looks out the F/O's window to verify visually separation. ATC asks them to proceed to spot G1. The reply (no mention of whether F/O or Capt.), as transcribed: "Can we just stand by if you like in the aisle before to (garbled) start clearance... to after"
The FA calls the Captain with a "Only for your information..."; the Captain gives the FA a response that it not understood.
ATC calls again, asking them to move to G1, so that AF behind them can go to G2. They reply: "Could I wait and move forward if it fits... to make sure clearance"
Thirty seconds later, AF calls and asks ATC to "Confirm that they are moving forward so that we can pass behind."
AA, hearing this, moves 10-15 feet closer to the holding point.
From the Ryanair crew's statement:
After receiving clearance, they took off normally to their destination (Ibiza). There were no additional comments from the from any cabin crew members for the duration of the flight.
Though they stated being certain that there had been no contact, the captain decided to do the pre-flight walk around personally once they were parked at the Ibiza airport. During the inspection she noticed that the paint on the right winglet was scratched. She regarded the defect as minor, one that did not justify any actions by maintenance personnel, especially as they would have had to fly from Barcelona, since the airline does not have mechanics in Ibiza. She also did not make an entry of the defect in the aircraft logbook.
During the stopover at the Ibiza airport, there were no additional comments from the cabin crew regarding the passengers' reports of potential contact.
After the return flight to Barcelona, as they were leaving the airplane, a cabin crew member informed the captain that several passengers had reported possible contact, which raised some concern during the flight to Ibiza. The captain was surprised to hear this since the FA who had called the cockpit, and who was very close to the cockpit, did not make any comments about it upon arriving in Ibiza. It was then that the captain called maintenance services who, after assessing the damage, opened a deferred maintenance item and dispatched the airplane.
Though they stated being certain that there had been no contact, the captain decided to do the pre-flight walk around personally once they were parked at the Ibiza airport. During the inspection she noticed that the paint on the right winglet was scratched. She regarded the defect as minor, one that did not justify any actions by maintenance personnel, especially as they would have had to fly from Barcelona, since the airline does not have mechanics in Ibiza. She also did not make an entry of the defect in the aircraft logbook.
During the stopover at the Ibiza airport, there were no additional comments from the cabin crew regarding the passengers' reports of potential contact.
After the return flight to Barcelona, as they were leaving the airplane, a cabin crew member informed the captain that several passengers had reported possible contact, which raised some concern during the flight to Ibiza. The captain was surprised to hear this since the FA who had called the cockpit, and who was very close to the cockpit, did not make any comments about it upon arriving in Ibiza. It was then that the captain called maintenance services who, after assessing the damage, opened a deferred maintenance item and dispatched the airplane.
Joined: Feb 2012
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From: Kopavogur
There are NO contractor airline pilots flying scheduled ops. Within Ryanair or any other European airline.
All are employees according to the law, no matter what contract said pilots were obliged to sign. If they signed a " contractor" contract, the employER is guilty of false self employment and is liable to pay due social security and taxes .
All are employees according to the law, no matter what contract said pilots were obliged to sign. If they signed a " contractor" contract, the employER is guilty of false self employment and is liable to pay due social security and taxes .
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 95
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From: .
Icelanta - we're talking semantics here...
A large number of pilots working for FR and EZY are SELF-EMPLOYED.
For practical purposes the are contractors as they are not paid directly by the airline they work for.
A large number of pilots working for FR and EZY are SELF-EMPLOYED.
For practical purposes the are contractors as they are not paid directly by the airline they work for.
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 22
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From: N-hemisphere
Icelanta,
true or not, completely off topic, and the subject has been bloodmilked in countless threads here on pprune.
Regarding the incident, it´s old news. I find it unfair to bring up something that happened what, 2 years ago, and say that Ryanair are always trying to cover up every incident they have, like any airline would advertise that they had a mishap. My point is basically, that people here on pprune are not very consistent when it comes to throwing stones. Ryanair hate-ing makes people pick anything they can just to get a shot at Ryanair.
I´ve said this before, I´m no fan of RYR management, I think they´re fkrs and bullies and play a big part in making t&c´s for pilots in they state that they are now. Having said that, I think flying wise, they are as good as it gets, and I believe statistically has no worse incident record than other airlines - quite possibly better. Maintainance has so far been one of the best in the airline industry, sop´s are a great safety net (although some trainers are comepletely fixed on them, at the expense of airmanship), and the pilots are generally in good form due to amount of sectors, demanding airports etc.
Oh yes, the incident... I think the captain actually thought that nothing happened, the collision might have been taken as a bump in the taxiway.
The reaction; absolutely ridiculous! If there´s any doubt, there´s no doubt. If you have to ask the other a/c to move forward, and then having cabin crew saying that pax thought there was a collision...
true or not, completely off topic, and the subject has been bloodmilked in countless threads here on pprune.
Regarding the incident, it´s old news. I find it unfair to bring up something that happened what, 2 years ago, and say that Ryanair are always trying to cover up every incident they have, like any airline would advertise that they had a mishap. My point is basically, that people here on pprune are not very consistent when it comes to throwing stones. Ryanair hate-ing makes people pick anything they can just to get a shot at Ryanair.
I´ve said this before, I´m no fan of RYR management, I think they´re fkrs and bullies and play a big part in making t&c´s for pilots in they state that they are now. Having said that, I think flying wise, they are as good as it gets, and I believe statistically has no worse incident record than other airlines - quite possibly better. Maintainance has so far been one of the best in the airline industry, sop´s are a great safety net (although some trainers are comepletely fixed on them, at the expense of airmanship), and the pilots are generally in good form due to amount of sectors, demanding airports etc.
Oh yes, the incident... I think the captain actually thought that nothing happened, the collision might have been taken as a bump in the taxiway.
The reaction; absolutely ridiculous! If there´s any doubt, there´s no doubt. If you have to ask the other a/c to move forward, and then having cabin crew saying that pax thought there was a collision...
Joined: Aug 2010
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From: Worldwide
Last edited by flydive1; 30th July 2012 at 16:55.
Joined: May 2003
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From: Cote d'Azur
From the crew statement:
I've noticed this law of nature operating in various companies/individuals over the years. Now I've a name for it - the Law of Ibiza!
The seriousness with which defects are treated is inversely proportional to the distance of qualified repair staff.
She regarded the defect as minor, one that did not justify any actions by maintenance personnel, especially as they would have had to fly from Barcelona, since the airline does not have mechanics in Ibiza.
The seriousness with which defects are treated is inversely proportional to the distance of qualified repair staff.
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 71
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From: Uxbridge
Another similar conflict at LHR here:
Air Accidents Investigation: Airbus 501130
I was pax on the 757 and definitely felt it. What the report doesn't say was that we were deplaned on to coaches without any break in departures on the nearby runway. Don't think the yellow jacket brigade would allow that today!
Air Accidents Investigation: Airbus 501130
I was pax on the 757 and definitely felt it. What the report doesn't say was that we were deplaned on to coaches without any break in departures on the nearby runway. Don't think the yellow jacket brigade would allow that today!
