plane crash in Lagos Nigeria
According to Danish media (Politiken), the crew of Danish helicopter (presumably the one mentioned in #65?) in the area heard "dual engine failure" from the MD83 crew on the radio.
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first off, I've never heard of looting at the site of the Northwest MD80 crash in Detroit...and there was one survivor, a little girl with painted finger nails...wasn't there/
anyway...some have been using the term fuel exhaustion and some fuel starvation...
please remember that fuel exhaustion means there aint no more fuel onboard the plane (useable0
fuel starvation means there is useable fuel aboard, but for some, as yet unknown reason, it was not feeding the engines
when I made my scenario posting, I took into account that perhaps these planes were not particularly well maintained...can you imagine switching crossfeed valve on, then off, but the cable moving the valve broke somewhere along the way to not allow closing the crossfeed? couple that with either bad boost pumps, or not properly switched pumps or certain check valve cracking pressure being incorrect?
We all know that having two engines should prevent BOTH from quitting at the same time without OUTSIDE factors (birds ) ...so what happened?
also...if you really know you are going down...no hope for relighting the engines, "stalling down" shouldn't be the option you take, as landing with the plane under control is more likely to produce survivors.
anyway...some have been using the term fuel exhaustion and some fuel starvation...
please remember that fuel exhaustion means there aint no more fuel onboard the plane (useable0
fuel starvation means there is useable fuel aboard, but for some, as yet unknown reason, it was not feeding the engines
when I made my scenario posting, I took into account that perhaps these planes were not particularly well maintained...can you imagine switching crossfeed valve on, then off, but the cable moving the valve broke somewhere along the way to not allow closing the crossfeed? couple that with either bad boost pumps, or not properly switched pumps or certain check valve cracking pressure being incorrect?
We all know that having two engines should prevent BOTH from quitting at the same time without OUTSIDE factors (birds ) ...so what happened?
also...if you really know you are going down...no hope for relighting the engines, "stalling down" shouldn't be the option you take, as landing with the plane under control is more likely to produce survivors.
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Apparently you've never been to Detroit.
It was my domicile when that happened, Just responding to the vague implication the looting happened because it was Nigeria, not the case....
It was my domicile when that happened, Just responding to the vague implication the looting happened because it was Nigeria, not the case....
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But I thought that's what the BA 777 crew did to avoid a road and petrol station?
I use that petrol station nearly ever day and it's a good place to watch landings, especially when the weather is a bit lively. Still, I'm glad I weren't there that day as I may have needed a change of undies!
Just wanted to say thanks to the replies of my previous posts. My thought was based on the fact they had enough speed but the zigzagging would reduce it. I didn't factor in that they were already approaching a stall window and the zig-zag was them trying to control it as someone else mentioned.
I was aware though, that it would be better to attempt a controlled crash-landing with correct speeds than simply drop from the sky like a stone.
Thanks for your insights and I'll continue to read with interest.
Stretching the glide
Regarding BA 38:
Initially it was the AP that attempted to "stretch the glide" - trying to hold the glideslope without enough power. Which resulted in a classic airspeed decay. The pilots didn't have much to work with by the time they took control at 108 kts.
In a micro-sense, one may be able to trade a little speed for a little distance or height at the last moment - enough to make a difference clearing a hedge, ditch, 8-foot antenna or a car on a roadway. But BA 38 didn't make the runway, and touched down stalled, with no control authority for the FO to make a flare (although he tried). Fortunately, soft soil and the snapping of the gear cushioned the impact just enough for the souls on board.
In the present accident, sadly, that minor amount of last-minute control would, from the pix, only have allowed a choice of which floor of the building the plane would hit.
If one is above best glide speed at the instant of power failure (or any point thereafter), one can gain some glide range by immediately pulling the nose up to reduce speed to the best glide speed.
Initially it was the AP that attempted to "stretch the glide" - trying to hold the glideslope without enough power. Which resulted in a classic airspeed decay. The pilots didn't have much to work with by the time they took control at 108 kts.
In a micro-sense, one may be able to trade a little speed for a little distance or height at the last moment - enough to make a difference clearing a hedge, ditch, 8-foot antenna or a car on a roadway. But BA 38 didn't make the runway, and touched down stalled, with no control authority for the FO to make a flare (although he tried). Fortunately, soft soil and the snapping of the gear cushioned the impact just enough for the souls on board.
In the present accident, sadly, that minor amount of last-minute control would, from the pix, only have allowed a choice of which floor of the building the plane would hit.
If one is above best glide speed at the instant of power failure (or any point thereafter), one can gain some glide range by immediately pulling the nose up to reduce speed to the best glide speed.
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It's not just Africa where you get these operators.
MK airlines was run from the UK and had a number of major accidents disproportional to its size.
One Two Go/Orient Thai also fits that mold and still operates out of BKK despite the tragedy that occurred at Phuket.
This sounds like a classic case of empty tanks to me.
I sometimes wonder why a flight crew are prepared to risk their lives on a daily basis for cheapskate airlines.
MK airlines was run from the UK and had a number of major accidents disproportional to its size.
One Two Go/Orient Thai also fits that mold and still operates out of BKK despite the tragedy that occurred at Phuket.
This sounds like a classic case of empty tanks to me.
I sometimes wonder why a flight crew are prepared to risk their lives on a daily basis for cheapskate airlines.
Last edited by Ye Olde Pilot; 4th Jun 2012 at 16:53.
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Fuel.
I have flown a little in Nigeria and I must say that fuel contamination is something that does come to mind readily.
Also, sadly enough, I considered Dana being one of the best run operations in Nigeria.
Also, sadly enough, I considered Dana being one of the best run operations in Nigeria.
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Fuel Starvation - Contaminated Fuel?
This would be the only plausible explanation judging by past accidents, BA LHR & CX HKG and summary others over the years.
Empty tanks, not lb, kg, L and US gal uplift calculation, differing additions = half the required quantity surely couldn't happen again!
Empty tanks, not lb, kg, L and US gal uplift calculation, differing additions = half the required quantity surely couldn't happen again!
Empty tanks, not lb, kg, L and US gal uplift calculation, differing additions = half the required quantity surely couldn't happen again!
Of course the rumour of double engine failure is just that and it still leaves all kinds of possibilities including slow spool up in a tight spot.
Things would make a lot more sense if we had knowledge of the exact flight plan and regime (was it coming or going or returning)
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The aircraft was landing in Lagos on a flight from Abuja. For some reason, there has been confusion about that route regarding if it was the other way round. I know it was landing in Lagos because I have friends who lost several relatives on that flight.
There are stories about that particular aircraft having problems in the past and shouldn't have been flying. A staff of the airline said the plane had been having hydraulic issues on previous legs. The engineers would fix it but the problem would come up again. The engineers suggested the plane shouldn't be flown but the Indian management that runs the airline said the plane must fly
. I'm waiting to see what the NCAA (Nigerian Civil Aviation Authority) would come up with in regards to a proper investigation.
This is a link to the staffs report : CHANNELSTV AUDIO: " We Were Forced To Fly The Faulty Plane"-Dana Airline Official | Sahara Reporters
If the story from the staff is true, its sad to think the management would put profit before the lives of human beings.
There are stories about that particular aircraft having problems in the past and shouldn't have been flying. A staff of the airline said the plane had been having hydraulic issues on previous legs. The engineers would fix it but the problem would come up again. The engineers suggested the plane shouldn't be flown but the Indian management that runs the airline said the plane must fly
. I'm waiting to see what the NCAA (Nigerian Civil Aviation Authority) would come up with in regards to a proper investigation. This is a link to the staffs report : CHANNELSTV AUDIO: " We Were Forced To Fly The Faulty Plane"-Dana Airline Official | Sahara Reporters
If the story from the staff is true, its sad to think the management would put profit before the lives of human beings.
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Long range MD......with an AUX tank
Just a fwiw this plane had the long range AUX tank in the forward pit. Doesn't mean there was any gas in it of course. This one is about as bad as it gets, and even worse if its a lack of gas situation. Odds of a double engine failure on the DC series are ten billion to one.
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Very possibly just a mistake in fuel loading.
One thing, a witness described "zigzag" motion, by which I assumed he meant the wings were rocking as they might near stall, and that implies they were rather empty of fuel (to dramatically rock to and fro to the point a bystander would make a note of it).
One thing, a witness described "zigzag" motion, by which I assumed he meant the wings were rocking as they might near stall, and that implies they were rather empty of fuel (to dramatically rock to and fro to the point a bystander would make a note of it).
Last edited by deSitter; 4th Jun 2012 at 19:13.