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A Sukhoi superjet 100 is missing

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A Sukhoi superjet 100 is missing

Old 18th May 2012, 11:06
  #401 (permalink)  
 
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Brilliant berndt - all too believable - especially that approach from the south

"Lets fly past the Volcano and then turn to port around the North side..." not realising just how big those ridges are.... get that turn wrong and you are deep in the s***

I know the area reasonably well on the ground - used to visit some people from sunny Jakarta who had weekend homes there - and the visualistation is excellent - altho there was a lot more cloud around on the day of the crash I believe
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Old 18th May 2012, 11:12
  #402 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Loose rivets View Post

(They do have secondary, don't they?)
Are you for real?
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Old 18th May 2012, 13:44
  #403 (permalink)  
 
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Weather in the Bogor Area

used to visit some people from sunny Jakarta who had weekend homes there
I used to live in Jakarta and often stayed in a weekend cottage on the flanks of Gunung Gede at about 3000', 13 nm east of Gunung Salak. It is hard to believe how quickly the weather can change in that area unless you have seen it.

Most mornings we would have a spectacular view of Salak with not a cloud in the sky, but by early afternoon, clouds would be developing quite quickly, with rapid changes in cloud base and distribution, particularly on the flanks of the volcanoes.

By mid- or late-afternoon, there would almost always be a severe thunderstorm. Bogor, at the foot of Salak is known as the thunderstorm capital of the world. Reputedly more than 300 storms per year.
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Old 18th May 2012, 16:27
  #404 (permalink)  
 
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Canadian C-130 incident : nearly got boxed-in

http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/vit...r/cc130327.pdf
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Old 18th May 2012, 17:52
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What is typical for a demonstration flight intended to sell commercial planes?

Been plenty of speculation in some quarters that the pilots were trying to show off the plane's capabilities by making a dramatic maneuver, or give passengers (or pretty stewardesses?) a thrilling view of the mountain.

But is that how you ordinarily sell commercial airplanes to airline executives (the purpose of the flight)? Or would you try to demonstrate the plane's capabilities by approximating what passengers would experience, such as a smooth ride, low noise, and other comfort features? And approximating what the cabin crew would experience (e.g., by providing beverage service, as in the photo from the earlier flight).

And perhaps try to impress the beancounters (this plane is so simple to fly, you quickly can convert pilots from other types, or hire straight out of flight school). Or demonstrate the excellent fuel mileage, or whatever impresses beancounters.

Part of making a successful sale is getting the customer to like you. Still, I'm having difficulty equating the object of the flight with the theory of a dramatic maneuver or sightseeing frolic. That seems more suitable for selling a plane to a private pilot.

Or am I just naive? What would be typical for such flights, especially given the particular audience aboard?
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Old 18th May 2012, 18:24
  #406 (permalink)  
 
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Typical for demonstration flight......well that would depend.

There is no one template for an aircraft demonstration flight. There would be wide variation between Boeing, Airbus showing off their 787 or 380 to a new customer and what happened on this “Superjet’ flight. What Cessna, Gulfstream or Falcon crews may do on a demonstration flight might well be different as well. Of course there is not one profile; the flight demonstration profile will differ with individuals, companies, weather and likely hundreds of other variables.

Respectfully, if you really want to know what happened I suggest waiting patiently for the accident report. Or get the necessary training and experience yourself and go become an accident investigator and be on the “ground floor’ with “real time” information (Yes, I have had some training in this field). Speculation is just that speculation; the vast majority of it serves zero purpose-nothing (generating a lot of heat (hot air) with no light (truth). Pounding away at the key boards isn’t going to make every detail of what happened magically appear.

The best I am hoping for is that the professionals of the field are given complete latitude to conduct their investigations and publish their findings that the rest of the industry may learn from this tragic event.

Last edited by Northbeach; 18th May 2012 at 18:48.
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Old 18th May 2012, 20:18
  #407 (permalink)  
 
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Impressive indeed that this area endures, according to former resident India Four Two, around three hundred T-storms a year; with a typical pattern of clear early morning, with afternoon buildup of cloud, and storm to follow in mid or late afternoon.

Several posts have mentioned that there could have been problems with vis.
Has there been any report on wind direction relative to the ridge? It is my experience in flying close to mountains and ridges that orographic cloud will typically form on the windward side, as damp air flows upward, and on the leeward side, although visibility may be better, quite horrendous sinking air may be encountered. So that approaching the rock face,hoping to clear the ridge, if they could see it at all, these conditions might have been unhelpful.
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Old 18th May 2012, 22:30
  #408 (permalink)  
 
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But is that how you ordinarily sell commercial airplanes to airline executives (the purpose of the flight)
I believe the passengers were largely journalists, not check-signing "airline executives." There may have been a few, but I think Sukhoi perhaps saw the purpose of the flight more as selling the aircraft by getting laudatory, wide-eyed newspaper and magazine coverage. And you're not going to get that by cruising super-efficiently at FL350.

I'm not being cynical, for in fact I've been an aviation writer since 1968, when I first joined Flying Magazine.
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Old 18th May 2012, 22:58
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Originally Posted by stepwilk View Post
I believe the passengers were largely journalists, not check-signing "airline executives." There may have been a few, but I think Sukhoi perhaps saw the purpose of the flight more as selling the aircraft by getting laudatory, wide-eyed newspaper and magazine coverage. And you're not going to get that by cruising super-efficiently at FL350.

I'm not being cynical, for in fact I've been an aviation writer since 1968, when I first joined Flying Magazine.
There were only 5 journalists on board; the others were mostly from various airlines in Indonesia. Not all were executives; about 11 from Sky Aviation (who have ordered the aircraft) were flight attendants.
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Old 18th May 2012, 23:01
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But is that how you ordinarily sell commercial airplanes to airline executives (the purpose of the flight)? Or would you try to demonstrate the plane's capabilities by approximating what passengers would experience
A flight demonstration can be executed in several ways
Here is one for Boeing
Ended better than the Sukhoi .. or the A320 demo flight in France .........

Last edited by jcjeant; 18th May 2012 at 23:04.
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Old 19th May 2012, 02:30
  #411 (permalink)  
 
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Very well written northfly

Its true that we should wait for answers, and yes it's very easy to judge and to think without having all facts. But at the end as it is a rumors forum and the fact that they did end up where they did end up and the fact that they did ask for clearance much below any safe altitude in that area for IFR atleast and the most likely route they took, kinda even with no proof so far points even if u like it or not ,points to much more of a classical and simple accident of human factors and poor of a lot lot things towards any technical failures or anything else. Just my intuition.
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Old 19th May 2012, 02:53
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As you most certainly know jcjeant, Alvin M. "Tex" Johnston had no passengers on board during his somewhat unorthodox sales demonstration of the Boeing's new Dash-80.

Last edited by Antek22QR; 19th May 2012 at 03:06.
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Old 19th May 2012, 03:33
  #413 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by India Four Two
By mid- or late-afternoon, there would almost always be a severe thunderstorm. Bogor, at the foot of Salak is known as the thunderstorm capital of the world. Reputedly more than 300 storms per year.
After landing my Beech 35 at Halim one mid-afternoon (on the flight from Seletar) I sat inside the plane for another half an hour, waiting for the RAIN to stop. As per subsequently issued TAF, Halim recorded over 4 inches of rain during this brief afternoon storm.

Last edited by Antek22QR; 28th May 2012 at 09:08.
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Old 19th May 2012, 10:26
  #414 (permalink)  
 
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Referring the 707 demo, listen to the end....


Mr.Allen (CEO):
You know that (what the aircraft can do), I know that but please don't do it again.
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Old 19th May 2012, 10:39
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scenic gone bad

looking at Benrd's videos, I cannot understand why they would have flown up that valley.
Well, I can, but only for one reason: give the pax a very cool scenic flight. At the top of the valley, with a rather steep climb and, it would seem, narrow turn to the right that would have to be followed by a rather steep turn to the left in order to avoid the ridge on the other side, they just ran out of speed, altitude (read: ground clearance) and good ideas. This looks a lot like a canyon run that a fighter pilot would do, having a much better thrust to weight ratio than a commuter jet.
I'd be most happy to stand corrected, but at this time, I suspect it's the old "hazardous attitude" thing that killed those onboard.

sais someone who doesn't think in "thrust to weight" but in "lift over drag" ratios.
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Old 19th May 2012, 13:56
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Originaly posted by Antek22QR
As you most certainly know jcjeant, Alvin M. "Tex" Johnston had no passengers on board during his somewhat unorthodox sales demonstration of the Boeing's new Dash-80.
Certainly he had passengers on board. Tex even says so: "One of my test engineers ... snapped a picture"

Last edited by meekmok; 19th May 2012 at 13:58.
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Old 19th May 2012, 14:27
  #417 (permalink)  
 
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He did a 1G roll at altitude. Nothing unsafe about it. In fact, the occupants on the plane wouldn't even feel it beyond the typical turning feeling if they weren't looking out a window.

Last edited by Khashoggi; 19th May 2012 at 14:27.
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Old 19th May 2012, 14:55
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Show off ...

air show vulcan rolls at farnborough - YouTube
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Old 19th May 2012, 15:58
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1G Roll

He did a 1G roll at altitude. Nothing unsafe about it. In fact, the occupants on the plane wouldn't even feel it beyond the typical turning feeling if they weren't looking out a window.
Just to be pedantic, it's impossible to execute a roll and maintain 1 G throughout. Typically, something like 0.5 Gs are maintained at the top of the roll, but up to 2 or 3 Gs are seen during recovery of level flight. That would be noticed by any passengers.

Further, what Tex Johnston performed was a modified aileron roll, not a true aileron or barrel roll. He started the roll while in a climb, and ended in a shallow dive to keep the Gs limited while in the roll itself. Recovery from the dive would see in excess of 1G.
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Old 19th May 2012, 17:39
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He did a 1G roll at altitude. Nothing unsafe about it.
He pulled it off... Couple of years later a LH crew on a 720 bought the farm on a training flight trying to play copy-cat...
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