Take off with snow on wing
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Russia
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Especially when you are only 24/27 and fly out of Tiumen, + the officials repeat the ever present official B.ll.x!
"Antsin, the pilot-in-command of the crashed plane, was a “responsible” and “highly professional” person......graduated from the Ulyanovsk Higher Civil Aviation School, one of Russia’s most prestigious civil aviation universities.
“No one could ever imagine that such thing could happen to Sergei, that he could make a mistake. He was smart and successful in his studies,” he said.
"Second pilot Nikita Chekhlov was only 24 years old"
“You can do everything right, just the way it is written in the flight manual, and get an absolutely unexpected result. None of us pilots is guaranteed against it.
Investigation will show what happened there,” he said.
Da da! Konieshno!
"Antsin, the pilot-in-command of the crashed plane, was a “responsible” and “highly professional” person......graduated from the Ulyanovsk Higher Civil Aviation School, one of Russia’s most prestigious civil aviation universities.
“No one could ever imagine that such thing could happen to Sergei, that he could make a mistake. He was smart and successful in his studies,” he said.
"Second pilot Nikita Chekhlov was only 24 years old"
“You can do everything right, just the way it is written in the flight manual, and get an absolutely unexpected result. None of us pilots is guaranteed against it.
Investigation will show what happened there,” he said.
Da da! Konieshno!
Join Date: Aug 2007
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This discussion is ridiculous. Contaminated wing. NoGo. Thats it. Nobody cares about dry snow or whatever.
It flys in this video. Yes. But at what margins? The wing is not clean, Critical AOA WILL reduce, thats a physical fact. When will it stall? I don't know, and you don't know and those pilots also didn't knew. And because we all don't know, there is only one solution: keep you wings fu***** clean.
Maybe one gust, one engine failure ore a higher rotation rate could have lead us to disaster. This may work 1 time, maybe 10 ore 100 times. Maye a thousand times, but one day it won't work.
Clean aircraft is clean aircraft is clean aircraft.
I am shocked about this discussion is 2012.
It flys in this video. Yes. But at what margins? The wing is not clean, Critical AOA WILL reduce, thats a physical fact. When will it stall? I don't know, and you don't know and those pilots also didn't knew. And because we all don't know, there is only one solution: keep you wings fu***** clean.
Maybe one gust, one engine failure ore a higher rotation rate could have lead us to disaster. This may work 1 time, maybe 10 ore 100 times. Maye a thousand times, but one day it won't work.
Clean aircraft is clean aircraft is clean aircraft.
I am shocked about this discussion is 2012.
Join Date: Apr 2003
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The only reason the snow blew off is that they held the plane on the ground for an extremely long time, increasing the wind speed as much as possible before they rotated (and even then it is the most idiotic thing I have seen in years). What if they suffered an engine failure and had to limp it in the air with one wing still covered with a lot of snow?
And with Checkboard I agree that there is no way to see from the video if the wing was clear at all. There probably were a lot of rough patches of clear ice left along with the spots of snow that did not blow off at all.
Bavarian, I am as shocked as you, but there are still idiots around, and I'm not talking about these Russians, who think they can get away with not de-icing.
And with Checkboard I agree that there is no way to see from the video if the wing was clear at all. There probably were a lot of rough patches of clear ice left along with the spots of snow that did not blow off at all.
Bavarian, I am as shocked as you, but there are still idiots around, and I'm not talking about these Russians, who think they can get away with not de-icing.
Join Date: Jan 2007
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I hope you will tolerate a quick comment from an SLF--but one who spent his formative years on the Canadian prairies where the sort of cold temperatures and powder snow that some have mentioned was very common. At sub zero (in Fahrenheit that is) temperatures, snow does indeed blow off far more easily than the heavy wet stuff that I saw when I lived in the UK.
I can half see where the "it'll blow off" posters are coming from.
But...and it's a huge but...the same soft, dry snow is also a great insulator. Any place you have even a weak source of warmth (perhaps the in-wing fuel system heating mentioned in an earlier post) the thickness of the snow can insulate the parts touching the metal from the extremes of the outside temperature and allow it melt or at least soften. Many was the time that the snow on the bonnet or roof of my car could create a layer of ice or at least sticky, adhering snow before it had a chance to completely blow off in normal driving.
Not a problem at all on a car but a huge risk, I'm sure, on an aircraft. Even worse, you can't tell from looking at the snow what's happening at the bottom of the pile and it would only take one mistake from an "expert" to have disastrous consequences. I have to think that the rules are there for a good reason.
I can half see where the "it'll blow off" posters are coming from.
But...and it's a huge but...the same soft, dry snow is also a great insulator. Any place you have even a weak source of warmth (perhaps the in-wing fuel system heating mentioned in an earlier post) the thickness of the snow can insulate the parts touching the metal from the extremes of the outside temperature and allow it melt or at least soften. Many was the time that the snow on the bonnet or roof of my car could create a layer of ice or at least sticky, adhering snow before it had a chance to completely blow off in normal driving.
Not a problem at all on a car but a huge risk, I'm sure, on an aircraft. Even worse, you can't tell from looking at the snow what's happening at the bottom of the pile and it would only take one mistake from an "expert" to have disastrous consequences. I have to think that the rules are there for a good reason.
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Even worse, you can't tell from looking at the snow what's happening at the bottom of the pile and it would only take one mistake from an "expert" to have disastrous consequences. I have to think that the rules are there for a good reason.
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Given that a large portion of people on PPRUNE appear to hate it when a passenger (sorry - SLF) or other non-pilot tries to comment on some of these matters, to some of us with a basic knowledge, it does seem obvious that this is dangerous.
Now, a non-pilot is sitting by the window over the wing which is covered in an inch of snow and he can hear the engines spooling up. What is he/she supposed to do? Make a fuss like some people have suggested? Or bite their tongue and hope for the best?
There may be many things that appear to be dangerous to a non-pilot and I don't think that any of you pilots would appreciate non-pilot passengers voicing their concerns all the time.
It is possible that the person filming the original video wanted to say something.. but somehow felt he couldn't.... What about the guy in the second video? He KNEW it was wrong and didn't say anything? Why is that?
Now, a non-pilot is sitting by the window over the wing which is covered in an inch of snow and he can hear the engines spooling up. What is he/she supposed to do? Make a fuss like some people have suggested? Or bite their tongue and hope for the best?
There may be many things that appear to be dangerous to a non-pilot and I don't think that any of you pilots would appreciate non-pilot passengers voicing their concerns all the time.
It is possible that the person filming the original video wanted to say something.. but somehow felt he couldn't.... What about the guy in the second video? He KNEW it was wrong and didn't say anything? Why is that?
Join Date: Apr 2003
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Do planes fly differently in Russia?
Has Airbus given the Russians special dispensation to fly with snow on the wings?
I know for a fact that they do things differently up north, but I also know for a fact that I will not pax on any of their aircraft. Ever. One captain with experience in those regions explained their reasoning to me: these aircraft are massively overpowered anyway.
There you go.
Has Airbus given the Russians special dispensation to fly with snow on the wings?
I know for a fact that they do things differently up north, but I also know for a fact that I will not pax on any of their aircraft. Ever. One captain with experience in those regions explained their reasoning to me: these aircraft are massively overpowered anyway.
There you go.
Originally Posted by shy talk
Let's face it, when it comes to 'snow', we're rank amateurs here, as we demonstrate year after year after year. We haven't got a bloody clue, so, we simply de-ice at any and every hint of frozen anything on the a/c.
The airbus I fly has enough range to leave the UK - and (surprise, surprise) it does just that each winter as it flies into mainland snowy Europe 
I remember seeing a very clean a/c getting de-iced one morning and scratching my head about his decision to de-ice and ours not to. Our a/c was spotless.
Over here we do things our way-and for a reason.
Maybes other places, where they have MUCH more experience of snow, they do things differently?
The pilots may well have checked for ice under the powder with some sort of approved tactile check. Who knows? (mind you- I doubt it.)
Not me, nor the posters on here who howl their righteous derision.
Maybes other places, where they have MUCH more experience of snow, they do things differently?
The pilots may well have checked for ice under the powder with some sort of approved tactile check. Who knows? (mind you- I doubt it.)
Not me, nor the posters on here who howl their righteous derision.
As to me, I can categorically state there is no "approved tactile check" for ice under snow which leaves snow on the wing. If you don't know that, then it's time for you to get back into the books.For those who go on about cold conditions and powder snow, using all of their vast car-driving experience - sure, some snow is easy to remove - in which case the procedure is to remove it.
No one cares if you use a broom, or compressed air to do that rather than de-icing fluid - but you still have to do it.
I'm not defending what these guys did-
Who wrote all of that rubbish then? The Russian snow fairy?
Still haven't heard if and what the repercussions may be, from a legal standpoint? Can and will there be any?
No sense in doubling up the rhetoric here
Join Date: Jun 2002
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Not for one minute am I going to condone the actions of this crew but I would like to know the answers to these questions:
1. Was this aircraft held on the runway beyond its calculated Vr?
2. How close to the the aircraft's performance and aerodynamics limit was this flight?
3. Did the crew actually know their aircraft was contaminated?
4. Would the aircraft have flown with the snow on the wings (engine-out)?
5. Is this normal for this airline?
1. Was this aircraft held on the runway beyond its calculated Vr?
2. How close to the the aircraft's performance and aerodynamics limit was this flight?
3. Did the crew actually know their aircraft was contaminated?
4. Would the aircraft have flown with the snow on the wings (engine-out)?
5. Is this normal for this airline?
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Has anybody confirmed the airline yet? (Apart from a youtube video comment). I see a lot of Russia bashing on here. My experience of the main Russian operators is good in regards to cold weather operations. They generally don't abuse their experience anymore than anyone else.
1. Was this aircraft held on the runway beyond its calculated Vr?
How could anyone not on the flightdeck possibly know?
2. How close to the the aircraft's performance and aerodynamics limit was this flight?
The point of ice contamination is that no one knows where "the limit" is.
3. Did the crew actually know their aircraft was contaminated?
How could they not? It's not snowing, so they taxied out with the wings covered in snow.
4. Would the aircraft have flown with the snow on the wings (engine-out)?
See point 2.
5. Is this normal for this airline?
It's not "normal" for ANY airline. That's the point.
Yes - see the thread in Tech Log.
How could anyone not on the flightdeck possibly know?
2. How close to the the aircraft's performance and aerodynamics limit was this flight?
The point of ice contamination is that no one knows where "the limit" is.
3. Did the crew actually know their aircraft was contaminated?
How could they not? It's not snowing, so they taxied out with the wings covered in snow.
4. Would the aircraft have flown with the snow on the wings (engine-out)?
See point 2.
5. Is this normal for this airline?
It's not "normal" for ANY airline. That's the point.
Has anybody confirmed the airline yet?
Join Date: Apr 2012
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Still haven't heard if and what the repercussions may be, from a legal standpoint? Can and will there be any?