Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Air controller during emergency landing: 'I know that's BS'

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Air controller during emergency landing: 'I know that's BS'

Old 20th Apr 2012, 18:28
  #161 (permalink)  
dns
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South East
Age: 42
Posts: 250
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
To be honest, sometimes I seriously wonder how there aren't more accidents in the USA (and some other countries)... So many of the procedures aren't "fail-safe". Like clearing multiple aircraft to land on a runway at one time....

No, that's not American-bashing, that's just an observation of procedure...
dns is offline  
Old 20th Apr 2012, 19:29
  #162 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 255
Received 22 Likes on 5 Posts
pudoc

I think if the US had phraseology like the UK it wouldn't have happend.

"mayday mayday mayday speedbird one two five six" - can easily hear the callsign
No? UK Captain at UK Heathrow.

"Mayday mayday. Speedbird Speedbird. Nine five nine five" - Sure, you can easily hear the incorrect/nonexistant/wrong callsign. After the wrong callsign, nothing. No nature of emergency. No position.

Do you honestly believe that the Heathrow controller who responded to the crash of that 777 would have had the slightest clue who or where "Speedbird 9595" was had the weather been such as it was in Denver (1/2 mile/snow) based on that useless call made a second before impact? Not a chance. The "Who" and "what" of that event was made self-evident looking out the window.

I bring this up to answer your conjecture that UK R/T in the U.S. would prevent the incident in Denver. Are you suggesting that if the United Express had declared "Mayday Mayday, Acey Acey, Fantasy Flight Number, Fantasy Flight Number", and then said nothing from that time foward until the tower heard the Captain of some unidentified aircraft giving the PA evacuate order on tower freq of an aircraft he couldnt see due to IMC conditions, the trucks would have arrived there sooner? Sorry, but I'm just not buying that uttering "Mayday" has that magic power.

US: "twelve fifty-six emergency" if said rapidly or the pilot is a split second too late pushing the PTT in his high-stress situation the 12 could easily be lost and rather than AAL1256 being the a/c the controller thinks is in trouble he could think UAL56 is in trouble.
The controller heard "NIne, and thought it sounded like "uNIted". Probably the best prevention would have been if the pilot had transitted 'Five Niner One Two" in response to the Controller's query instead of "Fifty-nine twelve". Even a "Five NIne One Two" response probably would have triggered "uNIted One Two" in the Controllers brain. Denver is a United hub, they probably hear and default to "United" in their sleep if they arent careful.

The controller wasn't careful enough. He has the strip with the Flight Number for reference. Yet when he experienced cognitive dissonance from thinking he heard United 12 knowing there was no United 12, instead of doing so or trying to continue the communication loop by reading back to the pilot what he heard (United 12) he defaulted to 'Hoax". Why? perhaps the odd sound of a pilot who's not used to speaking in a pinching Eros mask with O2 under pressure and speaking rapidly had him imagine some hunched over prankster in his car...he did say it "Sounded like it came from a handheld". Not using "Mayday" does NOT equate to "sounding like it came through a handheld" when U.S. standard "Emergency" phraseology is still there.

Maybe they talk about hoaxers too much at DIA without reiterating the responsibility to default to confusion with the safest response. Maybe he's the kind of guy who thinks "oh this can't be happening to me". Who knows, but for whatever reason he dropped the ball by assuming too quickly that which was wrong.

I think the RT should be a lot stricter, only need to listen to LiveATC to hear how laid back it is.
We want to sound cool and if you tell us what "should be", we'll just do the cool, opposite thing.

"Mayday" is used in so many things world wide from fire fighters to boating I don't see why they need to add the ambiguous word that is "emergency". Ambiguous by the fact it can mean mayday or pan pan.
That's your own private definition of "ambiguous", and the reason the FAA includes both in "Emergency" is they don't want pilots getting wrapped around the axle trying to differentiate the 2 conditions...they want the pilot to request assistance right away whether it's urgency or distress. As an example, look no further than the 4th post on this thread. You'll see Typhoonboy, one of the first to jump on the "Hmph they were so unprofessional" bandwagon, opining that what the United Express pilot had (smoke in the cockpit landing IMC) rated a "routine pan call". And just think, he had time to sit around thinking at his computer before writing that.

The FAA responds to a "Pan" call like an emergency because pilots can't be trusted to always know or state the actual seriousness of their condition, and since only 0.0000001% of us went to Oxford, they try to keep it simple by removing any area that could be used for debate.

Although, the US are very far from being a dangerous place for aviation so they're doing something right, but still...tighten the RT up.
No, we sound cooler the way we do it inside the U.S. When we fly overseas and adhere to ICAO-standard R/T, it makes us feel all nerdy inside.

I bet all you Americans are thinking how strict and tight us EUs are and we need to chill out.
We are, in fact, thinking that. It's axiomatic that the cooler you sound, the better you fly. And we value flying ability above radio telphony because fun chicks don't care about radio telephony. Back in the day, when you were practicing R/T phraseology holding dictaphones and rating each other on how you sound, we were holding keg parties and rating girls asses. So there's logic behind why we do what we do.

Last edited by PukinDog; 20th Apr 2012 at 21:23.
PukinDog is offline  
Old 20th Apr 2012, 20:46
  #163 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: this side of the hill
Posts: 127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
We are, in fact, thinking that. It's axiomatic that the cooler you sound, the better you fly. And we value flying ability above radio telphony, because fun chicks don't care about radio telephony. Back in the day, when you were practicing R/T phraseology holding dictaphones and rating each other on how you sound, we were holding keg parties and rating girls asses. So there's logic behind why we do what we do.
I don't care who you are but that's funny right there.

No, we sound cooler the way we do it inside the U.S. When we fly overseas and adhere to ICAO-standard R/T, it makes us feel all nerdy inside.
Funny again and it also explains the rather peculiar behaviour of US pilots at the end of their journey. For 25 years I've been thinking that it was due to fatigue.
garp is offline  
Old 20th Apr 2012, 21:00
  #164 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 255
Received 22 Likes on 5 Posts
dns.

To be honest, sometimes I seriously wonder how there aren't more accidents in the USA (and some other countries)... So many of the procedures aren't "fail-safe". Like clearing multiple aircraft to land on a runway at one time....
and adding to the insanity, not one of us is wearing a high-vis vest while barreling in. It's like queuing with no line on the floor telling you where to stand while you wait your turn. Like fueling your car while talking on a mobile phone. Like letting kids go outside during school lunch hour when it snows despite knowing one might slip or throw snowballs. It's a Wild West thing, and if you don't own spurs you'll never understand.

Last edited by PukinDog; 20th Apr 2012 at 21:12.
PukinDog is offline  
Old 20th Apr 2012, 22:38
  #165 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Somwhere between 6 and 15 feet below ground level
Posts: 106
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Diogenes, your search for an honest man can end. He goes by the name of PukinDog, and he can be found on PPrune.
Ditchdigger is offline  
Old 20th Apr 2012, 22:40
  #166 (permalink)  
dns
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South East
Age: 42
Posts: 250
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Pukin Dog, you really are losing credibility very quickly!

Maybe you could comment on this situation...

Aircraft on approach, 10 mile final, been cleared to land despite poor vis, despite 3 aircraft ahead. One of those 3 stops on runway for whatever reason. Aircraft on approach continues. 30 seconds later he is told to go-around due to blocked runway. Now, what would happen if that a/c had had a comms failure, or missed the go-around instruction? He'd land (as cleared). Potential disaster... How is this a good system?!
dns is offline  
Old 20th Apr 2012, 23:20
  #167 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 274
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
By way of diversion and as I'm getting a bit bored with the endless arguing bitching and theorising above:

Does any one know if the controller who let his son operate the radio at JFK about 2 years ago was reinstated after his suspension? I really hope he was.
suninmyeyes is offline  
Old 21st Apr 2012, 00:15
  #168 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: US via Oz, Honkers & Blighty.
Posts: 373
Received 20 Likes on 8 Posts
Pukin,

Thank you for that....best laugh I've had all week.
Kenny is offline  
Old 21st Apr 2012, 00:58
  #169 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: fl
Posts: 2,525
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The only time I declared an emergency was with smoke fumes in the cabin and cockpit out of MIA in a 757. I had never heard the words mayday spoken on ATC, only in movies so felt uncomfortable being the first so declaring an emergency worked quite well and landing was safe. It might be a nice international response but in the US it isn't required to get what you want.
bubbers44 is offline  
Old 21st Apr 2012, 02:01
  #170 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Essex
Posts: 291
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
For what it`s worth to either point of view, Cactus 1549 (Sullenberger, Hudson) didn`t declare emergency, mayday or pan, and was repeatedly referred to by ATC as 1529.
But then the Captain and F/O were concentrating on aviating and couldn`t give a monkees what they were called, or indeed whether anyone was rolling anything.
You say tomato!
doubtfire is offline  
Old 21st Apr 2012, 02:22
  #171 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: fl
Posts: 2,525
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
In a case like they had ATC couldn't help them because they couldn't land downwind in their judgement or make any other airport with their power. Mayday might be the proper word but usually the ground people can't help you much anyway except for notifying the crash crew. Not much point in wasting a lot of time notifying people that can't help you. The AF A330 making a mayday call would accomplish nothing out of RIO. If they can't help you just do what you can and don't get distracted with needless mayday calls.
bubbers44 is offline  
Old 21st Apr 2012, 03:14
  #172 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: fl
Posts: 2,525
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Ignoring a call he had smoke in the cockpit would not be ignored in the US. I had it and the handling was fine with no maydays. Trucks were there and we didn't have to say roll the trucks or mayday. We are declaring an emergency did everything. 23,000 hrs in US flying and zero ATC problems. Aruba is another issue on ATC problems. Also Caracus, cenamar, Dominican republic and a few other third world countries. Thank God for TCAS in some of these places. We went over Swan Island at FL350 one day going to central america in the clouds and reported Swan Island on the hour at FL350. 30 seconds later World Airways reports Swan Island at 01 at FL350. I asked, World, what direction are you going? He said SE, I was going S so quit worrying about him. It can get scarey down there. The TCAS I had was in a 727 and only looked forward so I do not know how far he crossed at our altitude behind us.
bubbers44 is offline  
Old 21st Apr 2012, 14:44
  #173 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Vancouver, BC.
Posts: 748
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Delta 1063 Bird strike out of JFK, Emergency call, r/t recording in report

Here's another one to discuss,

Delta Flight Makes Emergency Landing in New York After Bird Strike Destroys Engine [with Air Traffic Control Audio] | NYCAviation


BBC News - Delta Airlines plane makes emergency landing after bird strike

Last edited by no sig; 21st Apr 2012 at 15:00.
no sig is offline  
Old 21st Apr 2012, 22:05
  #174 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 255
Received 22 Likes on 5 Posts
no sig

Delta 1063 Bird strike out of JFK, Emergency call, r/t recording in report

Here's another one to discuss,


First in with "cowboys", "unprofessional", and the requisite s for good measure. C'mon people, you know the drill. Pack-up and pile on, it's a miracle anyone survived.


But amidst that ridiculous furball of jabbering (you know, why don't we just all agree to refer to anything that's a big pile of shlt as "pan-less" from now on) did you notice how cool the pilot of United 286 sounded at 3:29 when he stated they were "On the go"? Nice . The guy is obviously a good stick to pull one right off the same page as "Roll the trucks" in the Merican Aviation Lexicon, and his sense of timeliness...well, if it were any better it would be downright creepy, it's like he knew we're gathered here. So not only will his SH radio-work earn him beaucoup skybabe tail, but also the additional pleasure of hearing the sound of a million teeth gnashing on the other side of the pond.

Last edited by PukinDog; 21st Apr 2012 at 23:26.
PukinDog is offline  
Old 22nd Apr 2012, 00:48
  #175 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Essex
Posts: 291
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Mr Sick Dog

What exactly does " beaucoup skybabe tail" mean?

Furthermore. Your posts come across as though you feel a tad insecure.
You really shouldn`t rise to the bate of others. Just remind the rest of the world that flight began in NC and let it go mate.
doubtfire is offline  
Old 22nd Apr 2012, 05:56
  #176 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Black Diamond AB (CEH2)
Posts: 6,664
Received 77 Likes on 48 Posts
doubtfire,

I can't resist.

"beaucoup", pronounced "boo-coop" or "boo-coo" with a Southern accent, preferably Louisiana, is a commonly used word meaning "a lot of" or "many"

"skybabe" is obviously an "FA/stew/trolley dolly"

"tail" - you probably know or can guess.

Last edited by India Four Two; 22nd Apr 2012 at 07:23.
India Four Two is online now  
Old 22nd Apr 2012, 11:29
  #177 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 255
Received 22 Likes on 5 Posts
You know, I hate to bring this up, but.....

(sigh) Speebird 177

....had a golden opportunity to ride, straight and tall in the R/T saddle, into the morass of airwave cluster-feckedness and set an example for the yokels to aspire to (not that we would), and if not (safest bet), then at least as a matter of integrity and to post a big, proud win for airline, queen, and country. But what did Speedbird 177 do at 4:25 when this chance to shine presented itself? He choked, big-time, muffing his landing clearance readback by omitting "Speedbird" entirely: "Cleared to land, Two Two Left, One Seventy Seven". He just....omitted it. Like it didn't even exist.

Oh the humanity, not to mention a chance for glory blown (and with the high priests of ICAO sitting just down the road in Montreal no less). As it was, his readback could have been made from someone..I dunno, say....with a handheld, it was so cavalier.

Speaking of which, if the NYC's terminal airpace was Balaclava and (callsign omitted) 177 rode in like they did...Delta approaching 22R to the right of them, other aircraft most likely somewhere to the left of them, certainly additional traffic inbound behind them...well you get the picture, and look at how THAT much-studied example of mis-communication turned out. Haven't we learned yet that callsigns are always important, sometimes critical? For example, recently in Denver there was a little-known incident where a pilot garbled/ommitted a callsign which led to an ATC tower controller becoming confused, and he convinced himself...well, it was bad let me tell you, the upshot being the Controller thought the flight didn't even exist.

In that incident, about 100 people could have died if only more things had gone wrong. And that was just a little airplane. (Callsign omitted) 177 was a big airplane flying in the busiest airspace in the world, which means the ANIEWW (Adjusted Numbers If Everything Went Wrong) casualty count is lot more. Somewhere around 600 or so.

doubtfire
Furthermore. Your posts come across as though you feel a tad insecure.

I'm fairly troubled if they do. I was aiming higher, for Paranoid. This sid must be on the weak side.
You really shouldn`t rise to the bate of others.

The only "bate" I've seen around here is the circle-type, and yikes, just the spectacle of the first 9 replies on this thread made me want to reach for a firehose and break it up for the sake of common decency.


But I get your meaning about rising to the bait. The question you need to ask yourself is "Am I?" Oooooooo. Do dee doo doo mate.
Just remind the rest of the world that flight began in NC and let it go mate

Nah, the Kiwis have been working that "first flight" angle forever, and they're just so damn cute.
PukinDog is offline  
Old 22nd Apr 2012, 12:51
  #178 (permalink)  
Buttonpusher
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Bloody Hell
Age: 65
Posts: 449
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes on 2 Posts


I've had two serious emergencies right after take off in the last several years.

I never used the word Mayday, I was asked if I was declaring an emergency.

Both times, the controllers informed me that they were rolling the trucks.

If I have the same situation anywhere else outside of the US, I'll be sure and declare Mayday three times so you won't crucify me here on PPRune !
FLCH is online now  
Old 22nd Apr 2012, 12:56
  #179 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Central Montana
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I think ATC and pilots do an amazing job considering how many English accents are used and how many different ways the same thing is said, but it's time to streamline and organize the communication system.

I learned military radio proceedure in late 60s. Universal terminalogy in short concise statements.

Current radio communicaton is nothing even remotely uniform, short or concise. It's more like a phone conversation using abbreviations for commonly used words/phrases... and may words used for same meaning. It's no wonder ATC and pilots get confused. Problem is not language accent, it's the lack of the universal use of a communications code.

As good as ATC and Delta 1063 did, it is still not the use of a universal communications language/code.

Delta 1063 bird strike dialog:
"Aah Delta 10 6 ter 3 has had an engine failure on the right engine declaring an emergency do to a bird strike."
Should be something to the effect:
"Delta one zero six three, engine failure number four, mayday, bird strike"

Maybe not mayday, but something simple to denote a lessor degree of emergency.

"Delta one zero six three, bird strike number four, Delta one zero six three"

Just my thoughts after following this thread from the start.
doyll is offline  
Old 22nd Apr 2012, 16:12
  #180 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cornwall-on-Hudson, New York
Posts: 875
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Slightly off the specific topic, but to widen the view a bit, here's a discussion about a GA pilot who declared neither a mayday nor an emergency and perhaps bent some metal because of it.

Happened two days ago about 15 miles from where I'm sitting (awaiting the passage of the Interpid's Supermarine Scimtar up the Hudson on a barge, in fact):

http://n631s.********.com/2012/04/li...permanent.html
stepwilk is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.