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Air controller during emergency landing: 'I know that's BS'

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Air controller during emergency landing: 'I know that's BS'

Old 22nd Apr 2012, 19:38
  #181 (permalink)  
 
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Does anyone really really think that after declaring an "emergency" or a "mayday", that there is a need to ask for "roll the trucks" or "request emergency services". As soon as ATC hear those words they push a little red button connected to the fire station and before you can finish your R/T those guys put down their volley ball, car wash bucket etc and jump into their shiny fire engines to meet you. Can we PLEASE put that one to bed.

Mr Sick Dog. After reading many of your posts I have decided you do not really have anything positive to say. You just enjoy belittling and insulting others. Both your diction and syntax seem to come from some hollywood interpretation of aviation. You go out of your way to speak gobbledegook instead of plain english, or plain american. I have heard banner towers up and down Myrtle Beach sound more professional. Are you indeed a commercial airliner pilot at all? "fun chicks don`t care about radio telephony" " When we fly overseas and adhere to ICAO-standard R/T, it makes us feel all nerdy inside." and my favourite "the cooler you sound, the better you fly" Please do us all a favour and go back to your microsoft flightsim. No offence.
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Old 22nd Apr 2012, 20:53
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Mr Sick Dog. After reading many of your posts I have decided you do not really have anything positive to say.
Mrs. Doubtfire, have you ever heard the expression "jerking your chain"?
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Old 22nd Apr 2012, 23:52
  #183 (permalink)  
 
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Mrs. Doubtfire, have you ever heard the expression "jerking your chain"?
Or in British....."Taking the p!ss"
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Old 23rd Apr 2012, 00:22
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Originally Posted by Kenny
Or in British....."Taking the p!ss"
\
Or in Kiwiland, "taking the pus".
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Old 23rd Apr 2012, 09:54
  #185 (permalink)  
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I personally like PukimgDog posts. They confirm in a very nicecly written and humourous way our prejudices against Americans. He may have inspired some of Woody Allen film scirpts..

Back to mayday vs emergency and misusing call signs during an emergency . This is as old as the aviation world began.
The point one seem to forget is the reason to tell ATC you are in the Sh.t. It is to make sure everyone else knows, will shut up on the frequency and ATC clears everyone else around and below you so that you won't hit anyone else when you descent/ return etc..
3X Maydays does all this very well. Anything else , being innovative or "cool" might not achieve this. Just a remark and my 2 cents , but your aircraft .I am here to help, just ask, but make sure I unserstand what you want. Hence someone invented standard phraseology.

Callsigns, : stress does wonders to your body. but remembering your correct call sign is not high on the list. In nearly all the emmergencies and accidents I studied, the call signs were wrong at one point or another, even during simple TCAS RAs reports . In the HLF crash in Vienna , the pilot used callsign 123, 123 is the call sign used in the simulators when practicing emergencies.... variations are endless.

Point is that it does not matter much which call sign you use if you are the only one on the frequency or if there is only one of your airline in there. But flying into your hub will be a totally different story.
Just remember that.
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Old 23rd Apr 2012, 10:20
  #186 (permalink)  
 
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PukinDog...this Limey is lovin' your posts,keep up the good work
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Old 23rd Apr 2012, 12:05
  #187 (permalink)  
 
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Does anyone really really think that after declaring an "emergency" or a "mayday", that there is a need to ask for "roll the trucks" or "request emergency services". As soon as ATC hear those words they push a little red button connected to the fire station and before you can finish your R/T those guys put down their volley ball, car wash bucket etc and jump into their shiny fire engines to meet you. Can we PLEASE put that one to bed.
Multiple times in my round motor days, after advising ATC that we were declaring an emergency and shutting down an engine, when handed over to the tower we were asked if we wanted the equipment standing by. We'd decline but ask them to check with airport ops to see if they were setting up an escort for a tug and towbar. Eventually I got enough practice, I could taxi a DC-3 across DFW on one engine.
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Old 23rd Apr 2012, 13:46
  #188 (permalink)  
 
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Doubtfire,

I suspect the somewhat unwell hound is indulging in a spot of irony and baiting.

The lad obviously comes from a place where 'yank it an bank it' was the prime instruction in intial training, rather then the 'a touch more right rudder sir' that you and I might be more accustomed to.
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Old 23rd Apr 2012, 15:45
  #189 (permalink)  
 
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doubtfire

Mr Sick Dog. After reading many of your posts I have decided you do not really have anything positive to say. You just enjoy belittling and insulting others. Both your diction and syntax seem to come from some hollywood interpretation of aviation. You go out of your way to speak gobbledegook instead of plain english, or plain american. I have heard banner towers up and down Myrtle Beach sound more professional. Are you indeed a commercial airliner pilot at all? "fun chicks don`t care about radio telephony" " When we fly overseas and adhere to ICAO-standard R/T, it makes us feel all nerdy inside." and my favourite "the cooler you sound, the better you fly" Please do us all a favour and go back to your microsoft flightsim. No offence.
Whoa Amigo, you've been to Myrtle Beach? Was it wonderful???
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Old 23rd Apr 2012, 16:02
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"Whoa Amigo, you've been to Myrtle Beach? Was it wonderful???"

In my experience it is second only to Vegas in terms of being utterly apalling, but each to their own.

Fortunately, I'm now short-haul through choice, so the 'delights' of most of the US are long behind me.

If I said 'thankfully', would I uspset anyone?


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Old 23rd Apr 2012, 17:19
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Whenever an aircraft declares an emergency, why does atc ask for the tob and fuel on board. Surely the pilots are busy enough without having to pass this info which can be obtained just as easily from the ground staff. Also are atc or the emergency services going to provide a different level of service if the tob is 10 or 410 ?
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Old 23rd Apr 2012, 18:12
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Quote:
Mr Sick Dog. After reading many of your posts I have decided you do not really have anything positive to say.
Mrs. Doubtfire, have you ever heard the expression "jerking your chain"?
"Whoa Amigo, you've been to Myrtle Beach? Was it wonderful???"

In my experience it is second only to Vegas in terms of being utterly apalling, but each to their own.

Fortunately, I'm now short-haul through choice, so the 'delights' of most of the US are long behind me.
And the beat goes on ... Next?
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Old 23rd Apr 2012, 18:34
  #193 (permalink)  
 
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Whenever an aircraft declares an emergency, why does atc ask for the tob and fuel on board. Surely the pilots are busy enough without having to pass this info which can be obtained just as easily from the ground staff. Also are atc or the emergency services going to provide a different level of service if the tob is 10 or 410 ?
Basically because they want to know as quickly as possible how many people they need to look for if an emergency turns into a crash, and remember, the guy flying a Navajo with eight or nine sob doesn't -have- a "ground staff."

Fuel should be obvious, since it determines much of what your capabilities might be in terms of range/endurance if the emergency isn't necessarily a land-instantly situation.

And if you're too busy to tell them, say you'll get back to 'em on that...
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Old 23rd Apr 2012, 18:49
  #194 (permalink)  
 
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Fuel should be obvious, since it determines much of what your capabilities might be in terms of range/endurance if the emergency isn't necessarily a land-instantly situation.
I'd hazard a guess that fuel quantity might also affect ARFF response strategies.
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Old 23rd Apr 2012, 20:07
  #195 (permalink)  
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Once again a bit of education for the non professionals out here :

We ATC do not need POB and FOB, the fire fighters are. We ask because they need to know to help the emergency in the best possible way. One reason among others is the fact that they do no send the same number of ambulances and fire foam trucks for, say a 747 cargo with 2 POB and 100+ tons of Fuel, than you will for an Embraer with 100 pax and 4 tons fuel.

We need this info quickly . As pointed before, not everyone has a ground ops and we ATC do not have all airlines flying out there ground ops contact details , only the major at your hub, and even then, will take too long before you get the right guy at the end of the phone anyway.
The procedure is a a well rehearsed one, standardised by ICAO, applicable globally. Again a standard quick answer in standard phraseology is what will work best and save the most lives in the end.
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Old 24th Apr 2012, 00:36
  #196 (permalink)  
 
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The archaic blame game conclusion to this incident (dumb controller didn't do his job properly) helps no one and prevents nothing in the future. It maybe true in the US that nonstandard is standard regarding R/T, but to suggest phraseology and quality of radio call (amongst other things) played no part in the confusion is blinkered.

I'm not saying the pilots did a poor job of saving the aircraft from disaster. Aviate navigate communicate bla bla bla but if u don't want to end up a molten mess on the runway, it's in your own interest to make damn sure the controllers knows who u are and that ur in the s@#t. Use what ever phraseology you want but make sure it's understood.
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Old 24th Apr 2012, 01:22
  #197 (permalink)  
 
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We ATC do not need POB and FOB, the fire fighters are.
That is certainly true in specific kinds of emergencies--those that threaten to quickly end up on a runway somewhere--but there are many other kinds of emergencies, sorry maydays, where SOB and FOB are determinants for different reasons. Which I say not as "a nonprofessional" but as somebody who made his living flying GA aircraft. We aren't all airline pilots.
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Old 24th Apr 2012, 11:51
  #198 (permalink)  
 
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The procedure is a a well rehearsed one, standardised by ICAO, applicable globally. Again a standard quick answer in standard phraseology is what will work best and save the most lives in the end.
Having never been asked the question, what is the standard ICAO R/T terminology?
POB? SOB?

I would include myself in the POB count, but maybe not in the SOB count.
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Old 24th Apr 2012, 13:33
  #199 (permalink)  
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it is Persons , POB, you've watch too much "Titanic "

here you go, educating again , sorry for those here who knew it all before :

EMERGENCY COMMUNICATIONS

RTF Emergency Communications
As soon as there is any doubt as to the safe conduct of a flight, immediately
request assistance from ATC. Flight crews should declare the situation early; it can always be cancelled.
! A distress call (situation where the aircraft requires immediate assistance) is
prefixed: MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY.
! An urgency message (situation not requiring immediate assistance) is
prefixed:
PAN-PAN, PAN-PAN, PAN-PAN.
! Make the initial call on the frequency in use, but if that is not possible
squawk 7700 and call on 121.5.
! The distress/urgency message shall contain (at least) the name of the
station addressed, the call-sign, nature of the emergency, fuel endurance
and persons on board; and any supporting information such as position,
level, (descending), speed and heading, and pilot’s intentions.

RTF Emergency Communications
MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY, Metro Control, Big Jet 345, main electric failure,
request immediate landing at Metro, position 35 miles north west of Metro,
heading 120 flight level 80 descending, 150 persons on board, endurance three hours
Big Jet 345, Roger the MAYDAY, turn left heading 090, radar vectors ILS runway 27
Big Jet 345 request runway 09
Big Jet 345, roger, turn right heading 140 for radar vectoring runway 09,
descend to 3000 feet, QNH 995, report established
Big Jet 345, heading 140, descend to 3000 feet QNH 995 , report established
localiser runway 09

Fuel Reserves Approaching Minimum
’Fuel Emergency’ or ‘fuel priority’ are not recognised terms. Flight crews
short of fuel must declare a PAN or MAYDAY to be sure of being given the
appropriate priority

source ICAO phrasology guide
I should get paid for this
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Old 24th Apr 2012, 15:21
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Fuel Reserves Approaching Minimum
’Fuel Emergency’ or ‘fuel priority’ are not recognised terms. Flight crews
short of fuel must declare a PAN or MAYDAY to be sure of being given the
appropriate priority

source ICAO phrasology guide
Another area where FAA differs from ICAO. Here, we have "minimum fuel" and "fuel emergency", without a MAYDAY or PAN call required, being a recognized, sanctioned term. ( http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviat.../info08004.pdf ).

Note: Use of the term “minimum fuel” indicates recognition by a pilot that his/her fuel
supply has reached a state where, upon reaching destination, he/she cannot accept any
undue delay. This is not an emergency situation but merely an advisory that indicates an
emergency situation is possible should any undue delay occur. A minimum fuel advisory
does not imply a need for traffic priority
Emergency Fuel. Although not defined in the AIM or Federal aviation regulations, the
industry-wide connotation typically associated with the term “Fuel Emergency” is:
The point at which, in the judgment of the pilot-in-command, it is necessary
to proceed directly to the airport of intended landing due to low fuel. Declaration
of a fuel emergency is an explicit statement that priority handling by ATC is both
required and expected.
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