Japan airlines tailstrike...

[Callsign Kilo]

I was under the belief that if you deploy reversers, then on the ground you stay. Irregardless of aircraft type; logic surely dictates??

[lilflyboy262...2]

Out of curiosity, there is a squat switch or something of the like, that does not allow you to deploy the reversers.
What happens if you have landed on the mains and deployed reverse at the same time, then the aircraft is bounced back into the air again? Is there anything in the systems that will stop the engines from spooling up again while airborne?

[Intruder]

Probability of a main gear bounce after reversers are deployed is VERY low. Spoilers auto-deploy when reversers are deployed, even if not armed.

IF you could make it happen AND the airplane was still in 1 piece, reverse lockout should not prevent reselecting forward thrust. However, once in idle reverse, it should also NOT prevent pulling reverser handles further aft for increased reverse thrust.

[safetypee]

Whether a factor or not, it’s a good reminder of the need to be in trim at the final approach speed and not to trim during the flare.

Is there any significant trim change with reverse/spoiler deployment/retraction?

[Pontius]

Whether a factor or not, it’s a good reminder of the need to be in trim at the final approach speed and not to trim during the flare.

Safetypee, not a factor in the 777.

It looks to me, also, that the reversers are deployed and that is definitely a commitment to stay on the ground according to Boeing and, a little bird tells me, JAL. Even allowing for his very questionable decision, Captain-san then compounds the problem with a totally ridiculous pitch rate and one I would have bet a LOT of money on the outcome being a tail scrape. No power/pitch coupling problems, just a totally ham-fisted PF and very poor decision maker IF it turns out the reversers were as they appear on the video.

[de facto]

Reversers used is a no go for any go around,due loss of control and or TAILSTRIKE obviously,one needs enough forward thrust to get it up

[SMOC]

Spoilers auto-deploy when reversers are deployed, even if not armed.

Pulling reverse only moves the speed brake into the armed position, the spoilers still need to have the A/C on ground & thrust levers near idle, a bounce will cause the speed brake lever to move towards down again, however it's usually totally out of sync with the A/C by that point.

[safetypee]

Pontius; not a factor in the 777. How so?
If 777 uses autotrim follow-up, ‘a la’ Airbus, then autotrim presumably cuts out at touchdown. Even so, manual trim should be available during the late stages of an approach and flare. This would also be available on the ground; – setting trim before take-off. Or is this function only via a trim wheel and not a stick top electric trim?

My question was not directly about power-pitch coupling, it’s the aerodynamic pitching from reverse structures and/or spoilers which could be a factor, as they retract during a go-around after touchdown.

[Wirbelsturm]

To be honest anyone who has ever flown the 777 will have a bit of sympathy for the 777 nose gear as, during a normal touchdown, the spoiler deployment coupled with the selection of reverse thrust can slam the poor old nose gear into the contrete requiring a good old pull back to prevent First Class being buried!

In this situation I can only summise that with the spoilers up and the reversers deployed the pilot must have had to have the column in his lap to get a rotation rate, as the reversers stow, the spoilers drop and full power comes back on that pitch rotation rate would be dramatically increased leading to the tail scrape. All probably happening at relatively slow aerodynaminc airspeeds.

One would assume that this will result in a 'no tea, no biscuits' stand up chat with the management. Bring your hat!

[nitpicker330]

From the video the Reversers are either fully open ( deployed) or in transit. Either way he does not have significant forward thrust yet and as such the video shows a possible bounce recovery with a lot ( maybe full ) up Elevator causing a high pitch attitude. He certainly would not have enough forward thrust to be trying to get airborne!!

The transit time of the Reverser translating doors/sleeves after canceling Reverse is about 3 seconds, then the Reversers would need to be stowed closed before you could advance the thrust levers to TOGA. You can't even push the thrust levers forward until the Reverse interlock releases!!

So, in my humble opinion they either bounced and in the process of recovery obtained a very high pitch attitude or they way over flared. During the final touchdown they selected Reverse.

Either way the nose would probably have come crunching down later as they lost Elevator


UPDATE:--
I just looked at the video again at the 9 second point and it shows the 777 further down the runway after landing with the nose de-rotating. Then the nose pitches way up as he selected Reverse!! I've seen and felt it happen on the 777 and 744. Both times we were lucky and controlled the pitch up and brought the nose down ok.

[WASPERNATOR]

As you say, a bad day in the office..

Let's hope they use the correct number of rivets this time if they need to repair the bulkhead..

[asc12]

Video removed, it seems.

[SRS]

Cannot view video, maybe pulled? I would think that Korean would be broadcasting it all over the world!!

[suninmyeyes]

A 777-200 tail will scrape at 10-11 degrees pitch attitude if the main gear is still on the ground. Typical target pitch attitude for a takeoff or goaround is 15 degrees. As long as you have the correct airspeed and do not rotate too quickly then there should be no risk of a tail strike.

An N reg 777 scraped the tail on takeoff from R/W 27R at LHR a few years ago. A lot of into wind aileron was applied and the resulting spoiler drag and a slightly faster than normal rotation (3.4 degrees per second instead of 2.5 degrees per second) resulted in the scrape. I believe there was also a slight loss of airspeed due fluctuating wind during rotation.The aircraft dumped fuel and returned to LHR.

[mastercaution1]

Youtube

What happend to the Youtube video???

[WASPERNATOR]

we was robbed.. someone doesn't want it viewed.

What airline was the 777 at LHR 27R?

[suninmyeyes]

Waspernator

The 777 tail scrape on takeoff at LHR was a United aircraft.

Accident report http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources...pdf_501641.pdf

There was also a Korean Airlines 777 tailstrike on landing at Narita

BBC footage and video BBC NEWS | Special Reports | Korea plane lands on its tail

I'm also aware of a Continental 777 tail strike on takeoff on a flight from Newark to Hong Kong in 2005 and A Malaysian 777 tailstrike on takeoff at Zurich see photo link below

JetPhotos.Net Photo » 9M-MRJ (CN: 28417) Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777-2H6(ER) by Thomas Luethi

So JAL don't have a monopoly on tail strikes....
　

[Koan]

If only 411a could be resurrected to blame the tailstrike JAL pilots for rough handling..It is Easter ya know.

[Capn Bloggs]

Interesting. Our Boeing (not 777) AFM contains limits on pitch (10° until reaching 35ft) after a rejected landing. Those limits never made it into the FCOM.

[Al Goreng]

This reminiscent of a Korean Air B777-300 that attempted a balked landing after reversers were deployed. The PF had just had a sim bounced landing training and he falsely identified the strut compression as a bounced landing, hence he tried rotating whilst the reversers and spoilers were deployed. It ended up with the tail strike. Luckily the checkers on the jump seats commanded him to stop and come to a full stop landing. So I heard!

Heard from an ex KAL pilot that the bounced landing training by the Alteon geriatrics at KAL training centre was a contributory factor. Most of the Alteon instructors at KAL training have never physically flown a B777 and take what they read and see in the sim as the gospel truth. They have never experienced the strut compression and reaction of the aircraft at ground spoiler deployment upon touchdown. Most, especially those from the B757/767 think that the B777 is a souped up version of their old clunker that they claimed to have so expertly flown, that they just taught these Korean newbies what they used to do on the B757/767s. Hence that newbie just misidentified the gear strut compression in response to the unloading of lift upon ground spoiler deployment as a bounce, hence his subsequent attempt to reject the landing forgetting about the fact that he had already activated the reversers!

This was a prime example of hold on from sim training whereby the trainee associated sim scenario with his actual flight. Sometimes such training however well intended can have such undesired consequences.