China Vs EU

[racedo]

Good on China as stuff the tax.

[Uncle Fred]

I am not quite sure how heavily it would weigh into this situation but for those who are keenly watching the rise of China as a world power it makes one wonder if this is perhaps one of the many steps that it has made to string an arrow or two from its quiver of state elements of power. All nascent A-list nations have done it throughout history and we see it to a certain extent with the Chinese--military power, economic power, diplomatic etc. Not that it is bad--it is just what nation states do.

I am not saying that this specific incident is in any way a power play as I am not an Sinologist, but smart people are saying that China is starting to feel it oats and it some areas it will be quite deft, in others less polished. It goes to follow then that if it is flexing some economic muscle that it did so with diplomatic backing. Either that or else it acted without first considering that it was going to need some top cover from the striped pants set--something that I frankly doubt.

Either way, this one might just have a bit more shading to it than we think at first blush.

[haejangkuk]

China vs EU? You ain't seen nothing yet!

In the course of this year, the Chinese are going to help the rest of the world curtail the excesses of the greedy first world cabal who have been sucking the life out the world economy. Sadly most of the planet's populations have blinkers on believing only what the mainstream media like CNN, CNBC, Wall Street Journal, BBV, DTV, Al Jazeera, etc dish out to them on the idiot boxes and the print. Over the past several centuries, the Europeans have come and pillaged, now they are trying a different tact. Even their former colonies like New Zealand are suffering with their exports curtailed by " carbon miles " threats, etc.

[lomapaseo]

Over the past several centuries, the Europeans have come and pillaged, now they are trying a different tact. Even their former colonies like New Zealand are suffering with their exports curtailed by " carbon miles " threats, etc.

It ain't a "them vs Us" fight, it's just the checks and balances of economics vs technology. Any one of us (nations) could be on any side.

I wouldn't ascribe this to the collective "europeans". It's just a system that is temporaily being challenged.

Hell even the Euro is being challenged internally.

[POWDERFINGER]

Beware of "wumao" on this forum, preaching how China will save the world from the dreaded Western nations. China simply wants things its way, in line with its philosophy of "development first, quality last." As polluted as the country is, so it is happy polluting the world.

Not that the Americans are much better, whatwith the Republicans' attacks on any rules limiting carbon emissions.

[TZ350]

[quote] mattman
SMT Member you sound like one of those Eurocrats.

What a load of you spout, fair enough this is the same crap the European Parliment produces.
Do you really think the more than 10% of this monies will benefit anybody but the pockets of said morons.
The fundamental flaw in the EU plan is the money for carbon produced outside of the EU goes to the EU and does not benefit anyone else.
A simple and effective plan would have been to add a levy to fuel but that would have mainly penalized the European operators and this is not allowed.

Having to deal personally with this stupid scheme is a burucratic nightmare and insanely expensive.

But apparently the unelected politicians in the EU are smarter than us.

We are in a toilet bowl slowly circling the drain. [quote]

Should any of this bull$$hit from Brussels be a surprise ?

After all, these were the ( elected ?) that came up with this...............

Get ready for a basketful of wonky veg as EU ban on odd shapes lifted | Mail Online

Some people are alive only because it is illegal to kill them.............

[Auberon]

Originally Posted by JCviggen

I'm not one to support new taxes generally, but I have to say currently flying is too cheap. Car fuel prices are taxed to hell, why should air travel - a fairly polluting business in its own right - be exempt?

Have you actually looked at the taxes on an airline ticket? For example, you can buy a JFK-LHR roundtrip on VS for US$701.70. $502 of that goes to VS and $199.70 goes to various US and UK taxes. That's a tax rate of 40%.

[mtwittm]

This is an excellent move by China, just like Malaysia told the the IMF/World Bank to stuff it during the Financial Crisis in Asia.

Carbon Tax, Carbon Credit, Carbon Trading or whatever they want to call it, is just another fraud perpetuated on the developing / third world to stifle development.

[M-ONGO]

Viggen

I'm not one to support new taxes generally, but I have to say currently flying is too cheap. Car fuel prices are taxed to hell, why should air travel - a fairly polluting business in its own right - be exempt?

Your from Belgium. Enough said.

I see you've removed said post...

[AlphaZuluRomeo]

Apart for the unkind general comment about a whole nation... are U really sure, M-ONGO?
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/4...ml#post6937977

[green granite]

It has been said that the UN's IPCC's agenda on carbon trading and helping the 3rd world to cope with climate change is to take from the poor of the rich countries and give it to the rich of the poor countries. In this tax the EU is helping them achieve this aim.

[Kuchan]

This is China the country against the EU imposing carbon tax. China Airlines has no power, but China as a whole has.

If EU imposes carbon tax, China will retaliate the same but would give rebate only to third world contries.

There may be 200 aircraft from China to EU, but thousands more EU aircraft would have to pay tax to China.

This new year is the year of Water Dragon, presumably to be volitile.

[JCviggen]

Have you actually looked at the taxes on an airline ticket? For example, you can buy a JFK-LHR roundtrip on VS for US$701.70. $502 of that goes to VS and $199.70 goes to various US and UK taxes. That's a tax rate of 40%.

I've not flown to the US for several years so maybe i've missed something, I most often fly EU-Russia and taxes appear to be a bit lower there.

That said, 40% is still peanuts compared what it costs to travel by car. Fuel is taxed something like 200% -rough guess- and then you have road tax, registration tax, ... I don't find air fares particularly expensive in this day and age, and its usually cheaper than any other way of transport even if you're not necessarily causing less pollution (not that that is much of a concern for me personally)

@ Mongo, I feel dumber just replying to you, but 1) my post is still there and 2) I there's worse places to be from than Belgium though I don't actually live there anymore.

[M-ONGO]

JCViggen

Well, at least you now have a government... (The irony - Brussels controling Europe, and you with no Government yourself)

Brussels Eurocrats at their best...

EU bans claim that water can prevent dehydration - Telegraph

You seem to want the public to pay more for air travel. I'm glad you don't find air travel expensive. Many do.

Out of interest, do you fly for a living, does your livelyhood depend upon aviation?

I've not flown to the US for several years so maybe i've missed something, I most often fly EU-Russia and taxes appear to be a bit lower there.

Not for long it would appear... I take it you will not be complaining when the fares go up?

Interesting Global Warming Petition Project

(strange things have been happening with pprune posts and numberings, after I posted above, your post had disappeared)

[6000PIC]

The ETS is flawed because ;

1) The European Commission is un-elected , therefore it has NO authority. ( ECJ who ???)

2) A unilateral tax imposed unfairly , without examining ALL macroeconomic ramifications and without agreement by all parties concerned is doomed.

3) The group that has the authority to create , monitor , and enforce such a scheme is ICAO. Their absence in the ETS is proof of their incompetence and lack of political will by ALL members. Just like it`s parent , the UN , it`s time has come and gone.

4) All concerned parties have different agendas. Some will cite historical precedents , others will claim scientific data , still others will decieve and lie. Saving face is just the tip of the iceberg.

5) Any more ??? I`m sure there`s lots.

Like the Euro area as a whole , without a believable , trustworthy and transparent policy and plan , this " project " will fail.

[lomapaseo]

(strange things have been happening with PPRuNe posts and numberings, after I posted above, your post had disappeared)

I think that some posts are set aside for tea and biscuits by the moderators, after which they are either eaten fully or returned to sender

[boogie-nicey]

Indeed this along with a plethora of other trumped up taxes will nothing to help but everything to hinder meaningful growth and flow of trade. However when the mere taxpares/populus of Europe echo such sentiments the EU wraps up into it's Marie Antoinette mentality. This is why I am happy for China (and hopefully the US ....) to stand up and say 'no thanks sunshine'.

[JCviggen]

Well, at least you now have a government... (The irony - Brussels controling Europe, and you with no Government yourself)

Irrelevant as it is to the discussion or to my arguing credentials, Belgium had several governments at all time which were elected, and one caretaker federal one which carried on after its expiration date. But don't let that get in the way of a good story.

And people from Brussels don't control the EU, the EU leaders simply happen to meet in Brussels most of the time hence I don't quite understand the point you're trying to make.

Brussels Eurocrats at their best...

Of course it's ridiculous, but you can find this kind of stuff in nearly every government including the US and UK ones. It's easy to pick, choose and magnify these idiotic bureaucratic f-ups to make your point look stronger

You seem to want the public to pay more for air travel. I'm glad you don't find air travel expensive. Many do.

I don't think its cheap in itself, but it appears to me that air travel as a way of transportation enjoys many privileges over other modes of transportation for no obvious reason. It has also been established that although the exact consequences are currently impossible to calculate, the high altitude emissions of aircraft are not particularly good for the environment. Whether this is a concern to you or not, until it is established with certainty that we don't need to worry about it - we probably should given the potential consequences.

Out of interest, do you fly for a living, does your livelyhood depend upon aviation?

I do not -anymore- have anything to do with aviation but again I would argue this is irrelevant. Especially because those who DO have something to do with aviation are likely more focused on their own interests than those of everybody else.

I cant't believe I'm actually somewhat on the EU's side on this - I usually am not believe me. Perhaps the only reason I'm on this side of the argument is to try and balance it out a little with nearly every other poster here strongly opposed to this measure for clearly selfish or anti-EU (as is so popular in the UK these days) motives.
It cannot be denied that the EU has been trying for quite a while to get international agreement on this, and in the end appears to have gotten fed up with the lack of progress and introduced this "all on their own"

[M-ONGO]

the high altitude emissions of aircraft are not particularly good for the environment. Whether this is a concern to you or not, until it is established with certainty that we don't need to worry about it - we probably should given the potential consequences.

No, it's not a concern for me. Bring back Speys, JT8's et all. I'm off to fill up my 5.0l SUV now.

Air travel enjoys many priveladges over other forms of transport? Do you work for a carbon offset company? Greenpeace?

those who DO have something to do with aviation are likely more focused on their own interests than those of everybody else.

Of course - we are on a pilots forum not a tree huggers one. But tell me, how will you travel on vacation this year? Or for business will you drive to Russia from the EU? Perhaps the train?

Train can be worse for climate than plane - environment - 08 June 2009 - New Scientist

Smarter Pollution measurement proves the train is the worst polluter - GreenPacks

[MaxRange120]

EU's flagship environmental policy is producing crime, corruption and profiteering

The EU’s flagship environmental policy is a disaster on a titanic scale. Not only is it adding to energy bills, aggravating fuel poverty and leading to international trade wars, it has also had no real environmental benefit and is unlikely to provide any until 2016, over ten years since its inception. Indeed, the only beneficiaries of the EU’s Emissions Trading System (EU ETS), the jewel in the crown of European climate change legislation, are big banks and businesses making windfall profits.

The ETS has also been a paradise for criminals. Security in the entirely electronic system is so weak that phishing scams, the simple stealing of passwords to access accounts, shut down the ETS for two weeks. The European Law Agency has even estimated that 90% of all ETS market activity in 2009 was fraudulent. In cost terms, €5 billion has been lost so far from just one kind of VAT fraud. To counter crime, a common auction platform is being developed. However, given that countries are able to opt out of this (and the UK already has), the lax security is only likely to continue.

The Commentator - Environmentalists are undermining their cause by defending emissions trading