security, restore the balance of power
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Exactly... the possible permutations are endless. Only people who believe they'll pass the security checks will submit to the process, which to date has been everybody - including the bad guys. If you are part of a group planning what the IRA used to call a "spectacular" you'll do all you can to minimise the possibility of something going wrong on the day. So the first thing you do is look for the loopholes, backdoors and blindspots... and those responsible for foreseeing possible breaches have a piss-poor record.
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Sensitive security
Having endured the DFT approved approach to security for several years I have noted that for most of the time I have had little or no problem with the majority of the staff I have encountered at the airport that was my base, in fact I felt that I was treated very well 99% of the time, however on the other 1% when I met one of the DFT approved talking ar***ol** I felt that the attitude displayed by aforesaid talking sphincters was enough to make me have to sit down , take a deep breath and try to regain a sense of professionalism to allow me to continue with my day.
I really take exception to some of the complete plonkers who have been sniping at each other on this post instead of attacking the root cause of the problem and would like to see a concerted effort through local M.P's, BALPA etc to try to review the whole situation. I guess I am living in cloud cuckoo land if I expect anyone to institute any form of industrial action to show their displeasure at the prevailing situation but that's democracy for you!! - remember that next time you feel that your civil liberties have been infringed.
I really take exception to some of the complete plonkers who have been sniping at each other on this post instead of attacking the root cause of the problem and would like to see a concerted effort through local M.P's, BALPA etc to try to review the whole situation. I guess I am living in cloud cuckoo land if I expect anyone to institute any form of industrial action to show their displeasure at the prevailing situation but that's democracy for you!! - remember that next time you feel that your civil liberties have been infringed.
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JW411
My reward for putting up with their idiocies was the knowledge that I was soon to punch out of the top of the clouds into the sun and revel in that moment that reminded me why I had taken up aviation in the first place.
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galley covering easy to cut ....
Hi Mech,
Yes - several operators have this hatch covered with lino... but have you ever tried to get a small wall paper cutter ( round circular cutter - like a pizza wheel ) thru security ? Not a problem as plastic handle and wheel the size of large coin.
Unless the covering is cut proof or resistant then these can easily be brought on board ( they are no prohibited item as not a sharp blade under the size defn.
a few seconds alone in the galley and presto , once again into the system under the floor, the p210 power circuits, back plane powers sources and AIMS etc etc ... just saying that a bit of research shows all this up as still pretty vulnerable... WJA
Yes - several operators have this hatch covered with lino... but have you ever tried to get a small wall paper cutter ( round circular cutter - like a pizza wheel ) thru security ? Not a problem as plastic handle and wheel the size of large coin.
Unless the covering is cut proof or resistant then these can easily be brought on board ( they are no prohibited item as not a sharp blade under the size defn.
a few seconds alone in the galley and presto , once again into the system under the floor, the p210 power circuits, back plane powers sources and AIMS etc etc ... just saying that a bit of research shows all this up as still pretty vulnerable... WJA
My take on the situation, having been subjected to Airport security now for the ten years since 9/11 is that Al Queda must be wetting thier pants laughing. They have cost us billions and have the governements terrorisong their own citizens for them Must be one of the most successful franchises ever!
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pipistrlle
The reason that I started this thread was to try to spur members of this forum to get involved in the DfT enquiry into the future provision of airport security.
From an airport staff viewpoint the biggest problem is that there is no form of oversight into the way that the security system deals with them, most feel that any problem they highlight with security will result in an instant and aggresive threat to remove the airport pass resulting in them being unable to work.
The security industry managers have had a policy of avoiding any sort of oversight system as form their point of view being judge and jury in their own is the ideal situation. This leaves the staf member with no rights whatsoever unlike if you have a problem with the police were there is a well regulated system for complaints.
One of the key issues in the DfT enquiry was putting in place a formal system with independent oversight if a staff member has a problem with the security system.
IMO the system of oversight would in its self reduce the number of inccidents simply because the small number of security staff who are responsable for most of the problems would know that there was a system in place to curb their behaviour. It would also stop the management putting in place those petty local rules that flight crew unwittinly fall fowl of when away from base.
However with four pages of mosty very critical posts about airport security I have to ask who has taken the time to take part in the enquiry ? The DfT by asking the question about independent oversight clearly sees that there is a problem but without a number of people making submissions the security industry will be able to sweep the idea under the carpet, after all at the moment they have a situation that is ideal for them, why would they want the staff to have a regulated route to curb their activitys?
Unfortunatly we have reached the end date for submissions to the enqury so if you failed to make a submission then you are likely to have to put up with twenty years of the security system treating you as they want to, rather in the way you would wish because it will take twenty years or so for the next chance to change the system.
From an airport staff viewpoint the biggest problem is that there is no form of oversight into the way that the security system deals with them, most feel that any problem they highlight with security will result in an instant and aggresive threat to remove the airport pass resulting in them being unable to work.
The security industry managers have had a policy of avoiding any sort of oversight system as form their point of view being judge and jury in their own is the ideal situation. This leaves the staf member with no rights whatsoever unlike if you have a problem with the police were there is a well regulated system for complaints.
One of the key issues in the DfT enquiry was putting in place a formal system with independent oversight if a staff member has a problem with the security system.
IMO the system of oversight would in its self reduce the number of inccidents simply because the small number of security staff who are responsable for most of the problems would know that there was a system in place to curb their behaviour. It would also stop the management putting in place those petty local rules that flight crew unwittinly fall fowl of when away from base.
However with four pages of mosty very critical posts about airport security I have to ask who has taken the time to take part in the enquiry ? The DfT by asking the question about independent oversight clearly sees that there is a problem but without a number of people making submissions the security industry will be able to sweep the idea under the carpet, after all at the moment they have a situation that is ideal for them, why would they want the staff to have a regulated route to curb their activitys?
Unfortunatly we have reached the end date for submissions to the enqury so if you failed to make a submission then you are likely to have to put up with twenty years of the security system treating you as they want to, rather in the way you would wish because it will take twenty years or so for the next chance to change the system.
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Blast just seen this thread to late, people like this have no business in the job, they seem to forget their place is to secure an area, not tell a engineer, something they no nothing about what tools they need to do a job......
Bloke is an utter arse and should have no place in the job, this is the sort of thing we have to put up with!
http://www.pprune.org/engineers-tech...ge-wear-4.html
Let's face it, with an Airport having a boundary covering miles and miles, any self respecting terrorist wouldn't be seen dead queing at a security gate these days.
Bloke is an utter arse and should have no place in the job, this is the sort of thing we have to put up with!
Mr Chips i have no qualifications whatsoever in engineering which is why if confronted with a engineer trying to sneak a toolbox airside we insist on a letter of authorisation clearly stating just why he needs so many tools , people do not im sure realise what a danger tools can be airside, in the wrong hands they can pose a very serious security threat indeed which is why we are very alert to the dangers of engineers trying to blag there way airside with all manner of dangerous items.
However dont get me wrong, if the engineer is being sensible and has only one or two basic tools in his possesion, a torch and a pair of pliers for example that is not a problem, ...common sense has to prevail
However dont get me wrong, if the engineer is being sensible and has only one or two basic tools in his possesion, a torch and a pair of pliers for example that is not a problem, ...common sense has to prevail
I think people are getting a little carried away here, there is no problem whatsover getting any tools airside as long as the security professionals involved are satisfied the engineers concerned have boni fide reason for taking their tools airside, Provided one can prove without reasonable doubt that those tools are really required and not just "a nice to have item" and do not pose a threat to life and limb or the aircraft involved then all is well on our side
Just doing my duty FM, as long as engineers insist on trying to flout regulations and attempt to smuggle tools, boxes of teabags, take aways, flasks of soup etc airside we will have to remain highly vigilant, I even had one chap recently trying to get a large carrot cake airside ,....claimed it was his birthday!!... just how stupid do you think security officers are??
http://www.pprune.org/engineers-tech...ge-wear-4.html
Let's face it, with an Airport having a boundary covering miles and miles, any self respecting terrorist wouldn't be seen dead queing at a security gate these days.
Last edited by NutLoose; 11th Nov 2011 at 08:03.
Apologies for repeating myself, seems appropriate tho' .........
Some emergency ( maybe to arrest a real terrorist ? ) Airside at Hong Kong Kai Tak, a SWAT team hurrying through the crew security inspection area in the days when the only metal detector was a handheld Magic Wand. The Numpty waved said wand around every man in turn, it screaming like a Banshee at all the bullets, grenades, knives, bayonets, AK-47's hanging around every soldier.
When the whole pantomime had finished and the armed men had gone, a colleague asked the Numpty ... "exactly WHAT were you looking for ? "
Some emergency ( maybe to arrest a real terrorist ? ) Airside at Hong Kong Kai Tak, a SWAT team hurrying through the crew security inspection area in the days when the only metal detector was a handheld Magic Wand. The Numpty waved said wand around every man in turn, it screaming like a Banshee at all the bullets, grenades, knives, bayonets, AK-47's hanging around every soldier.
When the whole pantomime had finished and the armed men had gone, a colleague asked the Numpty ... "exactly WHAT were you looking for ? "
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While generally agreeing with some of your sentiments, I resent your offensive remarks regarding the 'numpties'. My daughter is a security officer at a major airport and does her job diligently and seriously whilst being cheerful and efficient, as do many of her colleagues.
Because they are numpties.
Security at XXX would not let our German crew through, because they did not have XXX passes, even though our 'German' aircraft was sitting on the tarmac outside. Now that is Numpty with a capital 'N'. Do they think we carry an airside pass for every single airport in Europe?
The Numpties also complained about us having toothpaste, and said we should put our bags through normal check-in. Do they have any clue, these Numpties? (Pilots in third destination - bags at first destination !!.)
The Numpties at XXX refused airside passes for pilots, saying we did not need to go airside. Upon asking how one gets airside, they said that only cleaners and baggage handlers could get airside passes. So the only people you can trust airside, are cleaners and humpers.
We had XXX Nupties stealing all our food and drink - including Danish pastries (custard whirls). Do these Numpties care that hungry pilots with low blood-sugar, are not working at their best?
But these same Numpties, allow Sikhs to carry a 4 inch knife airside, because it is a religious symbol. Are these Numpties racist too?
Grrrr
.
Last edited by silverstrata; 12th Nov 2011 at 14:10.
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I believe that it's to enable a 'vapour check' to be performed. A sealed bag will prevent/reduce the dispersion of chemicals that are being looked for. So providing certain liquids are actually as dangerous as they are purported to be, it may makes sense.
And when have you ever seen such a vapour check being done? Eh? Never.
This is all about profiteering. I had my own resealable plasic bag, but was told it was too large (A4). So I had to pay €1 to by a smaller one (A5).
THAT, is brain-dead profiteering by Numpties. And if you question a Numpty about why they are being numptyish, they threaten to end your career by taking your pass.
Its about time the boot was on the other foot, and some Numpties get terminated.
.
Last edited by silverstrata; 12th Nov 2011 at 14:35.
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I do not doubt the initial good intention. But it has become a self serving scam for some num......s.
The tragedy is that the authorities do not dare take any remedial action as it would seem they'd back off on security (not good for reelection i guess). So they let the num.....s continue their silly nintendo watch.
In the beginning they just screened our bags. Suddenly one overzealous unit wanted the laptops screened separately. As i asked why, they looked me in the eyes, with their numb-wannabe-professional look, and said it is because of the hard discs. Apparently somewhere some explosives were once upon a time stored in something like a hard disc.
So far so good. Then came the iPads and MacbookAirs, with only flash memory. But the num.....s continued to wanting to have them screened separately. This time with the argument " ..... it's the procedure ....".
today I am taking out my MacbookAir, to have it screened separately, and leave the remote hard disc in the bag uncontested ......
I start doubting the "intelligent design theory" ......
The tragedy is that the authorities do not dare take any remedial action as it would seem they'd back off on security (not good for reelection i guess). So they let the num.....s continue their silly nintendo watch.
In the beginning they just screened our bags. Suddenly one overzealous unit wanted the laptops screened separately. As i asked why, they looked me in the eyes, with their numb-wannabe-professional look, and said it is because of the hard discs. Apparently somewhere some explosives were once upon a time stored in something like a hard disc.
So far so good. Then came the iPads and MacbookAirs, with only flash memory. But the num.....s continued to wanting to have them screened separately. This time with the argument " ..... it's the procedure ....".
today I am taking out my MacbookAir, to have it screened separately, and leave the remote hard disc in the bag uncontested ......
I start doubting the "intelligent design theory" ......
Here is another piece of complete nonsense;
We operate into one of the London airports and we are scheduled to operate outbound with "an interesting load".
As such, we have a very highly qualified loadmaster who deals with "interesting loads".
We have a bit of a wait before the "interesting load" arrives so we go to the crewroom for a coffee.
Load arrives, so we gird our loins and try to go through "crew security outbound". I have absolutely no problems, neither does my first officer.
However, Numpty decides that Loadmaster is not aircrew and will therefore have to go through the passenger terminal (some distance away) for passenger screening.
Nothing would persuade him otherwise.
So, the "interesting load" with huge security protection (men with guns) had to wait while my loadmaster was transported to the passenger terminal so that the Numptys there could establish that he was wearing nothing more than his shreddies underneath his flying suit whilst on the other side of the airfield, nothing could move until he got back from his totally useless venture.
That is my big problem with this monster that has been created "To Keep Us All Safe".
It is all a load of b*llox.
As an ex-RAF pilot of 18 years service and who has been vetted to the highest standard in the UK (and the USA), I find it grips my sh*t to have to deal with idiots who would not even achieve the slightest level of PVR clearance if they were exposed to it before they got their job.
We operate into one of the London airports and we are scheduled to operate outbound with "an interesting load".
As such, we have a very highly qualified loadmaster who deals with "interesting loads".
We have a bit of a wait before the "interesting load" arrives so we go to the crewroom for a coffee.
Load arrives, so we gird our loins and try to go through "crew security outbound". I have absolutely no problems, neither does my first officer.
However, Numpty decides that Loadmaster is not aircrew and will therefore have to go through the passenger terminal (some distance away) for passenger screening.
Nothing would persuade him otherwise.
So, the "interesting load" with huge security protection (men with guns) had to wait while my loadmaster was transported to the passenger terminal so that the Numptys there could establish that he was wearing nothing more than his shreddies underneath his flying suit whilst on the other side of the airfield, nothing could move until he got back from his totally useless venture.
That is my big problem with this monster that has been created "To Keep Us All Safe".
It is all a load of b*llox.
As an ex-RAF pilot of 18 years service and who has been vetted to the highest standard in the UK (and the USA), I find it grips my sh*t to have to deal with idiots who would not even achieve the slightest level of PVR clearance if they were exposed to it before they got their job.
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Some years back I was paying a visit to a fellow ppruner who is an a/c engineer at his base in an er, northern English airport in a city where people nick stuff and have curly hair, so the stereotype goes.
While waiting for him to come and meet me at the security hut to take me airside I had the joy of observing the security staff as they whiled the night away. There seemed a strange dynamic in the place as the head honcho, a woman, was frankly a borderline psychotic. If anyone spoke to her she'd just go off her rocker at them. There was a bloke who just hid behind his copy of the Daily Mirror and a clearly junior young girl who ended up in tears after the crazy big cheese woman screamed at her. I recall heading outside to wait for my pal as it was too uncomfortable to watch.
Sadly after returning the head bitch decided she didn't like the look of me and refused to allow my pal who'd by now turned up to sign me in and take me airside. The next day came the liquids on board bomb plot and that was the end of that. So thanks a bunch, mental scouse woman!
While waiting for him to come and meet me at the security hut to take me airside I had the joy of observing the security staff as they whiled the night away. There seemed a strange dynamic in the place as the head honcho, a woman, was frankly a borderline psychotic. If anyone spoke to her she'd just go off her rocker at them. There was a bloke who just hid behind his copy of the Daily Mirror and a clearly junior young girl who ended up in tears after the crazy big cheese woman screamed at her. I recall heading outside to wait for my pal as it was too uncomfortable to watch.
Sadly after returning the head bitch decided she didn't like the look of me and refused to allow my pal who'd by now turned up to sign me in and take me airside. The next day came the liquids on board bomb plot and that was the end of that. So thanks a bunch, mental scouse woman!
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Security
I would like to comment on this issue.
First, all aircrew must have security "airside" passes to enter "security" areas on the airport. In order to obtain these passes, you are fingerprinted (all 10 fingers), and your photos are taken (full face and profile). Then they do checks not only of the applicant but also on the spouse, parents and in-laws. Police checks are done as well. Only after all these checks are acceptable is the pass issued to the aircrew member. After all that, flight crew are still put through the wringer at airports. Why bother to do all that checking if the crew members are to be put through a thorough check at the airport before each flight? Lets do away with the security passes since they don't mean anything anyway. On the other hand, if these passes do mean that the holder has been checked and cleared and is not a threat to security, then get rid of the airport checks. They can't have their cake and eat it.
Secondly, in every cockpit is a hatchet with a 5 inch blade and a pick also about 5 inches long which is part of the emergency equipment for evacuation, yet they worry about a small pocket knife carried be a crew member. How stupid.
Some say that there is nothing that can be done to stop the stupidity. I say there is. If we could get ALL the pilots to boycott each airport for 3 days in protest of this nonsense, the loss of revenue to the people running these airports would be staggering. They would soon fix the problem. The real task is getting all the pilots to agree to this.
In addition, where would all the people who make a living at airports be if it wasn't for the men and women who risk their lives every day to fly 'planes in and out of these places. It's time to put the horse before the cart. Boycott, boycott, boycott.
First, all aircrew must have security "airside" passes to enter "security" areas on the airport. In order to obtain these passes, you are fingerprinted (all 10 fingers), and your photos are taken (full face and profile). Then they do checks not only of the applicant but also on the spouse, parents and in-laws. Police checks are done as well. Only after all these checks are acceptable is the pass issued to the aircrew member. After all that, flight crew are still put through the wringer at airports. Why bother to do all that checking if the crew members are to be put through a thorough check at the airport before each flight? Lets do away with the security passes since they don't mean anything anyway. On the other hand, if these passes do mean that the holder has been checked and cleared and is not a threat to security, then get rid of the airport checks. They can't have their cake and eat it.
Secondly, in every cockpit is a hatchet with a 5 inch blade and a pick also about 5 inches long which is part of the emergency equipment for evacuation, yet they worry about a small pocket knife carried be a crew member. How stupid.
Some say that there is nothing that can be done to stop the stupidity. I say there is. If we could get ALL the pilots to boycott each airport for 3 days in protest of this nonsense, the loss of revenue to the people running these airports would be staggering. They would soon fix the problem. The real task is getting all the pilots to agree to this.
In addition, where would all the people who make a living at airports be if it wasn't for the men and women who risk their lives every day to fly 'planes in and out of these places. It's time to put the horse before the cart. Boycott, boycott, boycott.
For silverstrata and JW411:
Appreciate your seasoning this thread with some sanity to counter Poltergeist's marshmellows and hot air.
Methinks the paranormal protesteth overly much ...
Appreciate your seasoning this thread with some sanity to counter Poltergeist's marshmellows and hot air.
Methinks the paranormal protesteth overly much ...