security, restore the balance of power
Join Date: Oct 2003
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I travel as a pax often and go thru staff security frequently.
I got more abused at the staff check points, less at the pax security points.
As a pax I went thru without even taking my belt off and my electrical gadgets still in the bag.
At staff security, I would have to take out every gadgets including ear phone to satisfy them.
Most crews are thoroughly stripped of their baggage ( as they are the easy victims) to fulfill the airport security statistic quotas. Haven't you notice that they tick each time for each baggage search.
I got more abused at the staff check points, less at the pax security points.
As a pax I went thru without even taking my belt off and my electrical gadgets still in the bag.
At staff security, I would have to take out every gadgets including ear phone to satisfy them.
Most crews are thoroughly stripped of their baggage ( as they are the easy victims) to fulfill the airport security statistic quotas. Haven't you notice that they tick each time for each baggage search.
Join Date: Jun 2003
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As an engineer subjected to the staff security search each day I have to agree that the behaviour of the security staff is unacceptable. In the vast majority of my passages through security I witness unprofessional or rude behaviour. Good security staff are definitely in the minority. Some of my colleagues go through in pairs so one can stand witness for the other if required. That people resort to this is a clear indication of how poor security staff are and of the bad relations their behaviour has caused.
Most staff just bite their tongue and bear it. One who objected to being denied access through a door he had every right to use had his pass removed when he protested. There was absolutely no question of the security man being taken to task for being wrong.
When you do meet a team at the security point that are cheerful and professional you really noitice it.
Most staff just bite their tongue and bear it. One who objected to being denied access through a door he had every right to use had his pass removed when he protested. There was absolutely no question of the security man being taken to task for being wrong.
When you do meet a team at the security point that are cheerful and professional you really noitice it.
I think we need to make a difference between those who are employed to execute what ever the regulators deem necessary and the regulators themselfs.
My personal experience at my home airport, where I pass security several time per day, has been quite positive with regards of the people employed and their attitude towards us. I feel treated like one professional who is dealing with another. After a while you will get to know them and it was not a few weeks ago where we all were present for the retirement of one of their nicer people. So I do not think that universally security people are mindless drones who simply love to exercise their powers.
Having said that, I do recall experiences elsewhere which have been nothing short of harassment and fully would correspond to some of the things you guys have been experiencing. Like any other form of customer service disasters, they need to be addressed and dealt with.
The other and in my view significant part of the issue however are not the workerbees at the airports, but the regulators who have brought the current situation upon us.
It is not the airport staff I hold grudges against, because they are there to do a job. However, I resent, dissent and generally disagree with the fact that the regulators worldwide have
- without any credible reason declared the men and women whom they do trust with flying airplanes for a living, thereby forming the backbone of todays air transport business, as a whole and without exception as terrorist suspects.
- have given terrorist organisations the very victory they wished to achieve by their stupid and senseless acts, namely to have a profound and enduring effect on hindering us, their victims, to live our lifes and earn our livelyhood in a normal environment.
- have repeatedly and keep on harassing, accusing and generally suspecting every single air traveller in this industry of the intent to comit serious crimes.
Let's face it. One single individual or a very low number of individuals who come up with a supposed terrorist plot will therefore have power over millions of travellers, flight and ground crew, even if their "plots" are absolutely half baked and not in any way workable, such as the "liquid" rules which followed a plot which has been proven to be highly theoretical and unlikely to succeed.
That, I feel, is totally unacceptable.
Unfortunately, people once again have proven to be able to adapt to these "safety" rules with the energy of sheep. What would have been needed, at the time, is a world wide stand off against this. Passengers, Crews and Ground Staff alike. If you don't trust us, we won't fly. If you treat us like criminals, we will not fly. If we have to hand in our honor and dignity in order to be admitted to the high security facility which our airplanes have become, we will not fly.
I am not talking nor asking to abolish security checks altogether. But we need to come back to some sort of sanity in this, particularly where crew are involved. Anyone who will screen pilots to their underpants and thereafter lets them actually fly something much more effective than a genuine weapon needs to have his head examined. Make up your mind. If air crew are this much suspect, they can't operate airplanes. We need to ground the industry and let Al Quaeda and friends claim the unconditional victory over the population of this world.
Or we take a step back in this time of mass hysterics and come to the agreement that air crew are amonst the people which hold one of the highest sense of honor, comitment and dedication to their jobs and to aviation as such and therefore stop their shizophrenic suspicion of all of us.
We should not even think that regulators will relent to this without massive pressure. And it is more than questionable if there will be enough people to be willing to but their careers on the line for this. But like Ben Franklin said it, anyone who is willing to give up essential liberties and their dignity for a little supposed temporary security deserves neither.
My personal experience at my home airport, where I pass security several time per day, has been quite positive with regards of the people employed and their attitude towards us. I feel treated like one professional who is dealing with another. After a while you will get to know them and it was not a few weeks ago where we all were present for the retirement of one of their nicer people. So I do not think that universally security people are mindless drones who simply love to exercise their powers.
Having said that, I do recall experiences elsewhere which have been nothing short of harassment and fully would correspond to some of the things you guys have been experiencing. Like any other form of customer service disasters, they need to be addressed and dealt with.
The other and in my view significant part of the issue however are not the workerbees at the airports, but the regulators who have brought the current situation upon us.
It is not the airport staff I hold grudges against, because they are there to do a job. However, I resent, dissent and generally disagree with the fact that the regulators worldwide have
- without any credible reason declared the men and women whom they do trust with flying airplanes for a living, thereby forming the backbone of todays air transport business, as a whole and without exception as terrorist suspects.
- have given terrorist organisations the very victory they wished to achieve by their stupid and senseless acts, namely to have a profound and enduring effect on hindering us, their victims, to live our lifes and earn our livelyhood in a normal environment.
- have repeatedly and keep on harassing, accusing and generally suspecting every single air traveller in this industry of the intent to comit serious crimes.
Let's face it. One single individual or a very low number of individuals who come up with a supposed terrorist plot will therefore have power over millions of travellers, flight and ground crew, even if their "plots" are absolutely half baked and not in any way workable, such as the "liquid" rules which followed a plot which has been proven to be highly theoretical and unlikely to succeed.
That, I feel, is totally unacceptable.
Unfortunately, people once again have proven to be able to adapt to these "safety" rules with the energy of sheep. What would have been needed, at the time, is a world wide stand off against this. Passengers, Crews and Ground Staff alike. If you don't trust us, we won't fly. If you treat us like criminals, we will not fly. If we have to hand in our honor and dignity in order to be admitted to the high security facility which our airplanes have become, we will not fly.
I am not talking nor asking to abolish security checks altogether. But we need to come back to some sort of sanity in this, particularly where crew are involved. Anyone who will screen pilots to their underpants and thereafter lets them actually fly something much more effective than a genuine weapon needs to have his head examined. Make up your mind. If air crew are this much suspect, they can't operate airplanes. We need to ground the industry and let Al Quaeda and friends claim the unconditional victory over the population of this world.
Or we take a step back in this time of mass hysterics and come to the agreement that air crew are amonst the people which hold one of the highest sense of honor, comitment and dedication to their jobs and to aviation as such and therefore stop their shizophrenic suspicion of all of us.
We should not even think that regulators will relent to this without massive pressure. And it is more than questionable if there will be enough people to be willing to but their careers on the line for this. But like Ben Franklin said it, anyone who is willing to give up essential liberties and their dignity for a little supposed temporary security deserves neither.
Join Date: Jul 2007
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I have looked in a dictionary and cannot find the word "nuffsaid", so I am not sure what you mean. However please do not confuse me with a bank manager. If you don't know the difference between a pilot and someone who works in a bank, I think you are on the wrong website forum.
Join Date: Sep 2010
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Speaking from my society and government in the USA we are lost! Homeland security, first off nazi Germany had the "Fatherland", Communist Russia had the "Motherland". Great slogans for populus control.
Now on to the point, as we are becoming more of a police state we draw further from our constitutional ideals and the power the police have needs to be contested on a more frequent basis. The judicial system decides what is wright and wrong, the police enforce this. Police have too much latitude to cast judgement that is not their rite W/O consequence. Innocent until proven guilty my arse.
We are hemoraging money and resources to feed ritch and greedy assholes in the private security and arms sector, those fine folks and the persons they pay off in the government (lobbyists) are distroying this nation. Have no doubt, unless in a mudhut and self reliant it affects you, all over the world, you can not hide from this.
Aghh, a rant, am I allowed latitude in thought?
Now on to the point, as we are becoming more of a police state we draw further from our constitutional ideals and the power the police have needs to be contested on a more frequent basis. The judicial system decides what is wright and wrong, the police enforce this. Police have too much latitude to cast judgement that is not their rite W/O consequence. Innocent until proven guilty my arse.
We are hemoraging money and resources to feed ritch and greedy assholes in the private security and arms sector, those fine folks and the persons they pay off in the government (lobbyists) are distroying this nation. Have no doubt, unless in a mudhut and self reliant it affects you, all over the world, you can not hide from this.
Aghh, a rant, am I allowed latitude in thought?
Join Date: Sep 2010
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Most crews are thoroughly stripped of their baggage ( as they are the easy victims) to fulfill the airport security statistic quotas. Haven't you notice that they tick each time for each baggage search.
I Have Control
Join Date: May 2004
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Sad but true.
UK airport security are about the most unpleasant bunch, bar the TSA of course. One wonders just how these inadequate folk are trained, and what thoughts are put into their heads. Sadly, most are patently unable to exercise discretion, and are unable to participate in wise profiling. I imagine they are at the low end of the food chain in terms of job capabilities.
Blame their trainers and their management; the security people are of low intelligence and need suitable guidance. Their default mode is nastiness to anyone who may appear superior in appearance or attitude, namely well-spoken pilots or passengers. (The dubious-looking ones who may comprise the real danger are always waved through.)
Best say nothing, and show "respect" in one's demeanour. They lap it up.
Blame their trainers and their management; the security people are of low intelligence and need suitable guidance. Their default mode is nastiness to anyone who may appear superior in appearance or attitude, namely well-spoken pilots or passengers. (The dubious-looking ones who may comprise the real danger are always waved through.)
Best say nothing, and show "respect" in one's demeanour. They lap it up.
Aviator Extraordinaire
Join Date: May 2000
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In the USA flight crew can carry a firearm with a "US Marshall" ID, if you can pass a generic FBI background check (all airport personell need one) you can basically get this liscence. There may be more details to it that I do not understand.
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CON
In sprite you degrade my comment , lack of a fine grasp of the english language. Please elaborate on all levels of how incorrect i am in my previous statement. Damb I hate comments W/O actual content, say your word MAN!
Join Date: May 2004
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When I drive through security with my van full of oils, fuel, hammers, knives, screwdrivers and countless other sharp metal things, it always cheers me up to have my lunchtime soup and blunt spoon confiscated.
If a terrorist gets an airside pass you can be sure they won't need to bother smuggling a weapon through terminal security.
If a terrorist gets an airside pass you can be sure they won't need to bother smuggling a weapon through terminal security.
Join Date: May 2004
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...and having to put my Leatherman through the x-ray machine in case I'm trying to hide a knife inside my knife! Ah, that fair brings the chortles out!
Definitely more common sense needed with airside pass holders.
Definitely more common sense needed with airside pass holders.
As an SLF - I was surprised not to be asked any of the usual security questions at check in on a recent flight. Also a bottle of sun screen was left in bottom of carry on and not noticed.
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Thats changed now and there are regulations about having posters up everywhere. So they don't have to ask the questions but some old hands on checkin still run through them.
As for the not spotting, its perfectly normal for stuff not to be seen. You get pax coming up and handing over all sorts of stuff which you are suprised they got through. The two that spring to mind was a set of hydrometers which were glass things with serious amounts of mercury in them (they didn't travel and there was mucho issues about) in an antique box. I think they went by royal mail in the end which I had serious issues with when I found out because it would have written off the airframe if they had broken and it completely took the mick out of DAG regs.
And a couple of sets of shefs pro kitchen knife rolls which hannibal lecture would have been proud of. The chefs in question said they always took them in hand luggage and handed them to the crew when they got to the aircraft. And they certainly didn't come across as if they were telling fibs.
Its one of the reasons why crew gets so irrate when we get reamed because we know what does get through and whats airside anyway.
As for the not spotting, its perfectly normal for stuff not to be seen. You get pax coming up and handing over all sorts of stuff which you are suprised they got through. The two that spring to mind was a set of hydrometers which were glass things with serious amounts of mercury in them (they didn't travel and there was mucho issues about) in an antique box. I think they went by royal mail in the end which I had serious issues with when I found out because it would have written off the airframe if they had broken and it completely took the mick out of DAG regs.
And a couple of sets of shefs pro kitchen knife rolls which hannibal lecture would have been proud of. The chefs in question said they always took them in hand luggage and handed them to the crew when they got to the aircraft. And they certainly didn't come across as if they were telling fibs.
Its one of the reasons why crew gets so irrate when we get reamed because we know what does get through and whats airside anyway.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: AUSTRALIA - CHINA STHN
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Airport Security - misses elephant in room
Guys go look at this video and tell me if Boeing have fixed it or not... no... is the answer ... same thing in the 787... 747... 767... one of these babies will end up in your backyards again ... and Boeing know about it but don't seem too fussed...less eaters to pay for I guess?
http://web.me.com/mwuillemin/B777_VIdeo/B777_VIDEO.html
user - b777
password - b777hatches
And before anyone says this is irresponsible to post - I have alerted the FAA, OPERATORS , BOEING DOTARS ( AUSTRALIA) ...
NO ONE CARES ....
Maybe it will take another incident to get attention as they continue to take our nail clippers and hand cream off us ... and search 9 children travelling on holiday!!
http://web.me.com/mwuillemin/B777_VIdeo/B777_VIDEO.html
user - b777
password - b777hatches
And before anyone says this is irresponsible to post - I have alerted the FAA, OPERATORS , BOEING DOTARS ( AUSTRALIA) ...
NO ONE CARES ....
Maybe it will take another incident to get attention as they continue to take our nail clippers and hand cream off us ... and search 9 children travelling on holiday!!
Join Date: Jun 2002
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Bank managers have robbed their own banks whilst their kids were held at home, at gunpoint!
And then consider this. The average security guard at an airport is not doing their job to protect their country or fellow man. They are doing it for exactly the same reason that I work - to put a meal on the table. Yet unlike most other people, few choose this job out of choice, it's out of necessity. There aren't many other jobs they could do. Which therefore means that security guards are even more vulnerable to external criminal pressures. And what additional checks are made on security personnel? I'll wager bugger all with no additional profiling or spot checks on their family life either. And if any checks are done, the security personnel remain vulnerable because the bad guys don't know these are done.
No, the greatest threat to the security of aviation is the security system itself.
Join Date: Apr 2002
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woodja51,
The hatches on our new 777's are covered with the galley flooring and not accessible from the main deck. The hatches are physically there underneath. Actually it's a pain in the butt having to go in from downstairs every time you need to do something in the aft MEC.
The hatches on our new 777's are covered with the galley flooring and not accessible from the main deck. The hatches are physically there underneath. Actually it's a pain in the butt having to go in from downstairs every time you need to do something in the aft MEC.
Last edited by Flightmech; 9th Nov 2011 at 12:52.