Thomson 737 lands on taxiway at Paphos?
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 55
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From: under papa 600
Just returned from PFO (passenger) and cannot for the life of me see how two pilots can each / together mistake the taxi way for the runway under any circumstances. From the ground and from the air not to mention a chart for reference it just seems impossible.
No markings on the taxiway whatsoever - clearly visible runway markings - piano bars, numbers, centerline and heavy tyre marks all down the landing areas of the main runway from the passenger seat after departure and turning downwind at 3-4 miles - even if not visible on approach from far out surely to god clearly visible on short finals.
No markings on the taxiway whatsoever - clearly visible runway markings - piano bars, numbers, centerline and heavy tyre marks all down the landing areas of the main runway from the passenger seat after departure and turning downwind at 3-4 miles - even if not visible on approach from far out surely to god clearly visible on short finals.
Joined: Mar 1999
Posts: 367
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From: UK
Papa 600. Thank you for your informed comments.
I too have been to PFO, except I was up front. We took a visual to avoid heavy showers in the afternoon. Wet tarmac (reflective surface), into sun, ground markings not visible. I can see all too easily how such a mistake could happen.
Neither you nor I were on that flight deck that day. Neither of us can pass judgement on how they made such an error.
I too have been to PFO, except I was up front. We took a visual to avoid heavy showers in the afternoon. Wet tarmac (reflective surface), into sun, ground markings not visible. I can see all too easily how such a mistake could happen.
Neither you nor I were on that flight deck that day. Neither of us can pass judgement on how they made such an error.
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,643
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From: UK
Mowgli
I guess when the Cypriot investigation is published it will mention what the crew did prior (albeit they normally state number of fly/duty hours)
Then and only then can you summise what bean counters should be thinking.
Currently its 50/50 on you eating humble pie
I guess when the Cypriot investigation is published it will mention what the crew did prior (albeit they normally state number of fly/duty hours)
Then and only then can you summise what bean counters should be thinking.
Currently its 50/50 on you eating humble pie
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 724
Likes: 24
From: UK
papa600
You are passing judgement from the confines of a window that faces sideways? You sure that is a good basis for comment?
In a similar vein to what Nubboy said, I've landed at PFO, I can see how this could have happened. If it happened to them it could happen to another crew. Hence most of us would rather find out why, and avoid joining the ranks of armchair quarterback.
You are passing judgement from the confines of a window that faces sideways? You sure that is a good basis for comment?
In a similar vein to what Nubboy said, I've landed at PFO, I can see how this could have happened. If it happened to them it could happen to another crew. Hence most of us would rather find out why, and avoid joining the ranks of armchair quarterback.
Prof. Airport Engineer
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 726
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From: Australia (mostly)
FBW390 - thanks for your useful summary of markings a couple of pages ago; I've just had to look at turning a runway into a taxiway and leaving it available for possible emergency use at a later stage. You made a good start on the markings to be removed . . .
Before touching down always check quickly it is a rwy! It must have: Threshold markings, touchdown markings, fixed distance marks, and a runway number!!! There is nothing of that? The runway number is wrong? GO AROUND
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 143
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From: Offshore
Dismissal? Demotion? Retraining?
I wonder what fellow Ppruners think is the appropriate treatment of crews by their airline-employer in cases such as this. Sack'em? Retraining? Tap on the wrists?
On the one hand, in this particular case, there was a happy ending.
On the other, it could be argued that the error was serious, unforgiveable and could have resulted in a tragedy.
Any opinions? Please?
On the one hand, in this particular case, there was a happy ending.
On the other, it could be argued that the error was serious, unforgiveable and could have resulted in a tragedy.
Any opinions? Please?
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
From: Up there somewhere
Re post #170
There are various schools of opinion including the flight sim specialists pontificating on this.
Personally I think we should wait for the official report to be published before some folk on here hang the boys out to dry.
Personally I think we should wait for the official report to be published before some folk on here hang the boys out to dry.
Guest
Posts: n/a
we need to start thinking about present runway markings and LIGHTINGS seen from 1 Nm or less in APP, and whether they are ideal and safe.
PS. even a double check for your runway using FMS shall bring you to correct airport but NOT NECESSARYLY to correct runway.
PS. even a double check for your runway using FMS shall bring you to correct airport but NOT NECESSARYLY to correct runway.
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 175
Likes: 1
From: Cyprus
This is a classic chain-of-events incident.
1. An airport is built at Paphos with a parallel taxiway on the opposite side of the field to the terminal building.
2. The United nations embargoes the export of arms from Iran.
3. A U.S. Navy ship intercepts a Cyprus registered ship in the Red Sea carrying arms from Iran to Syria and orders it to Limassol, it's port of registry.
4. The Cyprus Government orders the unloading of 2,000 tons of explosives and ammunition and stores it next to the Island's main power station.
5. Two years pass by. BANG! Severe electricity rationing is enforced.
6. Two pilots with the Sun in their eyes approach 2 similar strips of tarmac, neither of which is lit but only one of which is marked with paint. They land on the wrong one.
7. Return to item 1, or 4, or 5, or 6.
Fortunately no harm was done but a long chain had been forged and lain unnoticed for a long time: it's lucky that it only lead to a banana skin!
1. An airport is built at Paphos with a parallel taxiway on the opposite side of the field to the terminal building.
2. The United nations embargoes the export of arms from Iran.
3. A U.S. Navy ship intercepts a Cyprus registered ship in the Red Sea carrying arms from Iran to Syria and orders it to Limassol, it's port of registry.
4. The Cyprus Government orders the unloading of 2,000 tons of explosives and ammunition and stores it next to the Island's main power station.
5. Two years pass by. BANG! Severe electricity rationing is enforced.
6. Two pilots with the Sun in their eyes approach 2 similar strips of tarmac, neither of which is lit but only one of which is marked with paint. They land on the wrong one.
7. Return to item 1, or 4, or 5, or 6.
Fortunately no harm was done but a long chain had been forged and lain unnoticed for a long time: it's lucky that it only lead to a banana skin!
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 199
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From: flightdeck/earlyhours commute
Several years ago, when taxiing out at Linate, we were confronted by an Alitalia making a very stable approach to the Taxiway! Nice clear day, from our position on the ground. All of our lights on, and a very busy ATC frequency, so we couldn't get a word in.
Fortunately, they realised their mistake, and made a very obvious turn to the correct runway at what appeared to be fairly low height (we guessed about 300feet) and all ended happily.
It happens.
Many things that happen in aviation can be looked at from a number of perspectives. But once it's happened, one most important thing is to understand the 'why', to avoid the repeat as best we can.
I'm sure that since this event, a great many of us have been reviewing in greater detail, the presence and orientation of the taxiway at PFO. I'm sure also that there are some who have dismissed the event as something that cannot possibly happen to them.
We can discuss at great length the 'poor choice' of having the runway between the taxiway and the apron, but worldwide, airports have a lot of unique features, and repeatable features. Parallel runways, long parallel taxiways, designated runways that serve as taxiways (DLM 01L is Taxiway F, most of the time). PAPIs on the left/right/both sides. Side step procedures that get thrown at you unsuspecting (unless you briefed it). Obstacles on the approach. Approach lights, unless they are turned off.
I would like to say it will never happen to me. But I am sure I am NOT infallible.
Of the best people that I have flown with, all are cognisant of their ability to make a mistake.
Of the worst people that I have flown with, all are convinced that they are the best, incapable of error, and the mistake is by someone else. (this latter group seem to encounter more problems/incidents, strangely)
Fortunately, they realised their mistake, and made a very obvious turn to the correct runway at what appeared to be fairly low height (we guessed about 300feet) and all ended happily.
It happens.
Many things that happen in aviation can be looked at from a number of perspectives. But once it's happened, one most important thing is to understand the 'why', to avoid the repeat as best we can.
I'm sure that since this event, a great many of us have been reviewing in greater detail, the presence and orientation of the taxiway at PFO. I'm sure also that there are some who have dismissed the event as something that cannot possibly happen to them.
We can discuss at great length the 'poor choice' of having the runway between the taxiway and the apron, but worldwide, airports have a lot of unique features, and repeatable features. Parallel runways, long parallel taxiways, designated runways that serve as taxiways (DLM 01L is Taxiway F, most of the time). PAPIs on the left/right/both sides. Side step procedures that get thrown at you unsuspecting (unless you briefed it). Obstacles on the approach. Approach lights, unless they are turned off.
I would like to say it will never happen to me. But I am sure I am NOT infallible.
Of the best people that I have flown with, all are cognisant of their ability to make a mistake.
Of the worst people that I have flown with, all are convinced that they are the best, incapable of error, and the mistake is by someone else. (this latter group seem to encounter more problems/incidents, strangely)
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,517
Likes: 0
From: Wayne Manor
it's just made news on the daily wail website..
Passenger jet packed with British tourists narrowly avoids disaster... after pilots land it on WRONG side of airport | Mail Online
and from the article...
The 'media' sees us as a respected pilots forum !
... just hope the media don't wander into T&E
Passenger jet packed with British tourists narrowly avoids disaster... after pilots land it on WRONG side of airport | Mail Online
and from the article...
The incident has also caused heated debate on a respected pilots forum website, with one telling of his disbelief at the blunder and criticising the pilots for missing the runway despite clear markings.
He wrote: 'Pilots miss all the visual clues and land on the taxiway. I'd be afraid to get on board with these two professionals.'
He wrote: 'Pilots miss all the visual clues and land on the taxiway. I'd be afraid to get on board with these two professionals.'
The 'media' sees us as a respected pilots forum !
... just hope the media don't wander into T&E
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 666
Likes: 0
From: Betwixt and between
The incident has also caused heated debate on a respected pilots forum website, with one telling of his disbelief at the blunder and criticising the pilots for missing the runway despite clear markings.
He wrote: 'Pilots miss all the visual clues and land on the taxiway. I'd be afraid to get on board with these two professionals.'
He wrote: 'Pilots miss all the visual clues and land on the taxiway. I'd be afraid to get on board with these two professionals.'
