Thomson 737 lands on taxiway at Paphos?
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To my critics... of course I'm not infallible but I stand by what I say. When I make a similar mistake then I will eat my words. Fair enough ?
Last edited by Smudger; 20th Jul 2012 at 15:12.
Smudger,
You are the perfect example of those on whom CRM and a reporting culture are totally wasted. I just hope that when you make your first ever mistake that you don't take others with you.
You are the perfect example of those on whom CRM and a reporting culture are totally wasted. I just hope that when you make your first ever mistake that you don't take others with you.
Having operated into/out of PFO for the 15 years I have sat on the apron and watched civil and military aircraft, from first world airlines and first world countries line up on the taxiway and then make jink to the left when they realised they were looking at the "wrong RW". I can only conclude therefore its an incident/accident waiting to happen and will happen again.
There for the grace of god go I.
There for the grace of god go I.
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Taxiways V Runways
Just cannot see what all the fuss is all about. Some have landed on runways already occupied , others have piggy backed on those already there, some have run off the end, there have been those who have landed on runways that are not on their FP to find no terminal building anywhere in sight. Tuning in the ILS is not exactly a guarantee of success either, eg slight finger trouble in dialling up Monsieur DeGaulles instead of Le Bourget can certainly improve your vocabulary in Gallic argo. What could have happened is not the same as what happened and is there a lesson to be learned, no I don`t think so.
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Shyte, .... all I said was I couldn't understand how the two runways could be confused ! I find your remarks insulting and uncalled for. You assume far too much about me. I have been flying professionally, both military and civil, for 40 years (which I know is no guarantee of current performance) and I do have a sound understanding of what CRM/airmanship is all about. I will take no further part in the discussion on this thread.
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Smudger
"When" you make that mistake is a bit late. Why not learn from this saga and instead of saying it can't happen, when it has, twice, try thinking.
IMHO the fact that you started your flying career in the military some 40 years ago reinforces Shytehawks comments.........
And if you have a difference of opinion with your FO (big assumption you are a Capt), do you withdraw into your corner of the flightdeck in a hissy fit then too?
"When" you make that mistake is a bit late. Why not learn from this saga and instead of saying it can't happen, when it has, twice, try thinking.
IMHO the fact that you started your flying career in the military some 40 years ago reinforces Shytehawks comments.........
And if you have a difference of opinion with your FO (big assumption you are a Capt), do you withdraw into your corner of the flightdeck in a hissy fit then too?
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Smudger
You made a comment (oh and I am not trying to turn this into a lets gang up on smudger post) :
The risk of landing on the taxiway at this airfield (with a slightly abnormal arrangement - taxiway furthest from the terminal) was obviously not covered in the approach brief otherwise it would have stuck out like a saw thumb. Because of this it can be all too easy to miss the bigger picture with nothing to pull the mindset away from landing on the strip ahead. Add a bit of fatigue or stress and it becomes even harder.
I have no doubt that the two drivers will look at that approach dozens of times over the coming years and still not believe what they did, because they are human and that is what we do.............
You made a comment (oh and I am not trying to turn this into a lets gang up on smudger post) :
I still can't figure out how anyone can manage to land on the wrong piece of tarmac.
I have no doubt that the two drivers will look at that approach dozens of times over the coming years and still not believe what they did, because they are human and that is what we do.............
Was sitting in the back seat of a Piper Senecca a few weeks ago, and this is a photo of the aforementioned runway and taxiway, I took as we approached. Not my best of photos as I was a bit queazy at the time, but hopefully this will help the discussion as to which is the runway and which is the taxiway.
Last edited by cyflyer; 23rd Jul 2012 at 04:26.
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Smudger's comment puts it quite well (my underlining):
all I said was I couldn't understand how the two runways could be confused
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CYflyer
Nice photo on a nice day presented to people who are in a low workload situation.
Now what is the view like when the sun is going down in the west, there is a bit of haze, no aircraft in view and you are doing the landing checklist?
This mistake has been made by a few people now so it is a bit of a trap and not clear as your photo might sugest........ Oh and the approach lights are on , not something I have seen a lot of during daytime landings at PFO.
Now what is the view like when the sun is going down in the west, there is a bit of haze, no aircraft in view and you are doing the landing checklist?
This mistake has been made by a few people now so it is a bit of a trap and not clear as your photo might sugest........ Oh and the approach lights are on , not something I have seen a lot of during daytime landings at PFO.
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10,001 metres viz and late afternoon sun is still CAVOK... Looks nothing like the photo though!!
As for lights, you can't see the PAPI's until the last mile or two, even when it is clear!!
As for lights, you can't see the PAPI's until the last mile or two, even when it is clear!!
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OK lets assume that due to late afternoon haze etc none of the obvious RW markings / lights are clear. All you can see are two parallel "landing" strips
How exactly does this then cause someone to confuse right as being left?
How exactly does this then cause someone to confuse right as being left?
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And there we have exactly the question: It is not a question as to whether or not it can be done despite assertions to the contrary. The question is, HOW or perhaps more pertinently, WHY?
Shortly after this event I received 4 emails from people who had managed to line up with the taxiway at PFO in exactly the conditions described, low sun, haze, pale tarmac blending with dry grass etc. Happily, all 4 spotted the error in time to make a correction and there is now a focus on catching the "nearly" safety events.
I can make it 5. A few years ago a very senior Captain with vast experience lined up with the taxiway. I spoke up and the correction was made in good time so no issue. His comment after shut down was one I try to remember - "I've been flying for 40+ years and I never cease to be amazed at the new ways I still find to
up and the number of scenarios I still see for the first time". I regret that we didn't consider filing a report, a regret echoed in all 4 emails above.
As for the how or why, I have no idea although there were extenuating circumstances.
The lights I believe are now always on as a result of this incident and the findings from the investigation.
And I'm sure you will have seen that a military type has just managed the same trick in the Tampa FL area, landing not on a taxiway but at a nearby municipal airport. Again, how, why?
Shortly after this event I received 4 emails from people who had managed to line up with the taxiway at PFO in exactly the conditions described, low sun, haze, pale tarmac blending with dry grass etc. Happily, all 4 spotted the error in time to make a correction and there is now a focus on catching the "nearly" safety events.
I can make it 5. A few years ago a very senior Captain with vast experience lined up with the taxiway. I spoke up and the correction was made in good time so no issue. His comment after shut down was one I try to remember - "I've been flying for 40+ years and I never cease to be amazed at the new ways I still find to
up and the number of scenarios I still see for the first time". I regret that we didn't consider filing a report, a regret echoed in all 4 emails above.As for the how or why, I have no idea although there were extenuating circumstances.
The lights I believe are now always on as a result of this incident and the findings from the investigation.
And I'm sure you will have seen that a military type has just managed the same trick in the Tampa FL area, landing not on a taxiway but at a nearby municipal airport. Again, how, why?
Last edited by yeoman; 23rd Jul 2012 at 15:56.
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Ok, I'm not a professional pilot - but I was a controller for many years with a similar interest in making sure things happen right.
I think yeoman has summed things up very neatly - rather than saying I would do anything as daft as that we should be looking for the WHY....and then doing whatever we can to fix the underlying causes. It's in everyone's interest!
And one other thing that strikes me is the difference between yeoman's Captain's "I've been flying for 40+ years and I never cease to be amazed at the new ways I still find to up and the number of scenarios I still see for the first time" and the rather different attitudes expressed by some other ostensibly very experienced posters. 
I think yeoman has summed things up very neatly - rather than saying I would do anything as daft as that we should be looking for the WHY....and then doing whatever we can to fix the underlying causes. It's in everyone's interest!
And one other thing that strikes me is the difference between yeoman's Captain's "I've been flying for 40+ years and I never cease to be amazed at the new ways I still find to
up and the number of scenarios I still see for the first time" and the rather different attitudes expressed by some other ostensibly very experienced posters.
Yeoman
Whatever the rights and wrongs of the incident in question please don't go down the pointless route of bringing up the age old Civil/Military issue.
Beamer - civ/mil flying for your company !
Whatever the rights and wrongs of the incident in question please don't go down the pointless route of bringing up the age old Civil/Military issue.
Beamer - civ/mil flying for your company !