Two BA pilots questioned about mobile phone incident
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I would not do it again!
Years ago (long before September 11th 2001 & the subway bombings) as a first officer during a night flight I discovered a large heavy metal flashlight (MAG Light) in the flight deck a few thousand feet below top of climb. We had experienced a mechanical delay at the departure airport and several maintenance technicians had been on the flight deck resolving the issue.
It was a nice flashlight, heavy duty and felt very good and solid in my hand. What's the first thing that crossed my mind? You guessed it: gee I wonder if it works? So, I pushed down on the on/off button and sure enough it lit up. I didn't talk to the Captain about it, I just pushed the button. Almost immediately I was overcome with a terrible thought; what if the "flashlight" had been modified to contain an explosive device. If it had been, then my actions had just killed me and everybody else on the jet.
Sure enough several months later reading through some industry security briefing materials revealed the existence of several modified devices, including a flashlight. I sure felt dumb.
Often it is not the flying part of this job that makes it at times so very difficult. It is all the "odd" variations of circumstances, people and environmental challenges that present one with the most puzzling scenarios. Further there is usually several entities waiting in the perimeter to criticize and second guess your every action and word.
Good luck to this crew, I hope the best possible outcome and I am glad nobody got hurt.
Ya'll be careful out there!
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Two points to calm the hysteria:
1) We are at the mercy here of journos, to whom the 'runway' extends from the gate to the far end of the piste.
2) The phone, if unclaimed by pax, should not travel on the flight
Other than that, let's wait and see the facts. I have myself (in BA) offloaded a suspicious package (at LGW, out of the window and into the arms of a member of the fire service who attended the aircraft 'on the runway' (we call it taxyway) and received said (ultimately harmless) item into a secure stowage.)
1) We are at the mercy here of journos, to whom the 'runway' extends from the gate to the far end of the piste.
2) The phone, if unclaimed by pax, should not travel on the flight
Other than that, let's wait and see the facts. I have myself (in BA) offloaded a suspicious package (at LGW, out of the window and into the arms of a member of the fire service who attended the aircraft 'on the runway' (we call it taxyway) and received said (ultimately harmless) item into a secure stowage.)
The problem with dismantling the phone or object is that you don't know if it is booby trapped. The other problem is that you also don't know if it has a secondary power source.
I also had a security incident at 35000 feet , mid Atlantic, meaning we had to go through a mobile Phone deactivation procedure, and I don't mind telling you, there is more to it than meets the eye.
Had I had the opportunity to drop it out of the window, I probably would have!
(barometric switches, etc not withstanding)
P.s ATC are supposed to be there to help us, not the other way around. They need to remember who their customers are.
I also had a security incident at 35000 feet , mid Atlantic, meaning we had to go through a mobile Phone deactivation procedure, and I don't mind telling you, there is more to it than meets the eye.
Had I had the opportunity to drop it out of the window, I probably would have!
(barometric switches, etc not withstanding)
P.s ATC are supposed to be there to help us, not the other way around. They need to remember who their customers are.
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P.s ATC are supposed to be there to help us, not the other way around. They need to remember who their customers are.
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Bit ironic to be questioning the professionalism of the press?
Nothing on board of an airplane which cannot be linked to anyone on board is allowed to be there during a flight!
Airport authorities should do their job and assist in safety, not in harassing crew and passengers as it is the norm these days!
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Other than that, let's wait and see the facts. I have myself (in BA) offloaded a suspicious package (at LGW, out of the window and into the arms of a member of the fire service who attended the aircraft 'on the runway' (we call it taxyway) and received said (ultimately harmless) item into a secure stowage.)
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Once the doors are closed and steps etc removed the easiest way to remove forgotten items from the aircraft is via the flight deck window, suitably wrapped and weighted. I have done it many times on the ramp and occasionally on the taxyway, but always to a member of staff and with the help of ATC.
The question is why were ATC so unhelpful, even obstructive and why the heavy handed approach with police involved.
With the information available I would have thought that apologies from Airport/ATC to airline, crew and passengers were necessary.
Seems to have been a jobsworth approach by airport staff and I hope the airline remonstrates with the airport.
One can only speculate that had the airline been say Ryanair then Michael O'Leary would probably withdraw from the airport tomorrow.
I hope BA shows some backbone and supports its crew.
The question is why were ATC so unhelpful, even obstructive and why the heavy handed approach with police involved.
With the information available I would have thought that apologies from Airport/ATC to airline, crew and passengers were necessary.
Seems to have been a jobsworth approach by airport staff and I hope the airline remonstrates with the airport.
One can only speculate that had the airline been say Ryanair then Michael O'Leary would probably withdraw from the airport tomorrow.
I hope BA shows some backbone and supports its crew.
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The issue here is not one of the actions of the crew who I am sure took the correct action but what action the BA management take.
Do the BA management back the crew ? or do they act on the mis-informed report from the public that that been blown up into a so called news story to fill the front page on a slow news day.
So its over to you BA management it's your call back the actions of two professionals or yeald to a mis-informed reporter who has the luxury of power without responsability.
Do the BA management back the crew ? or do they act on the mis-informed report from the public that that been blown up into a so called news story to fill the front page on a slow news day.
So its over to you BA management it's your call back the actions of two professionals or yeald to a mis-informed reporter who has the luxury of power without responsability.
The Law wrt dropping of items from an aircraft in flight is covered by Art 66 of the ANO I think and may apply here:
Dropping of articles and animals
66.—(1) Articles and animals (whether or not attached to a parachute) shall not be dropped, or permitted to drop, from an aircraft in flight so as to endanger persons or property.
-(4) For the purposes of this article “dropping” includes projecting and lowering.
Dropping of articles and animals
66.—(1) Articles and animals (whether or not attached to a parachute) shall not be dropped, or permitted to drop, from an aircraft in flight so as to endanger persons or property.
-(4) For the purposes of this article “dropping” includes projecting and lowering.
Last edited by Nightstop; 26th Jun 2011 at 12:26. Reason: ANO reference added
I wouldn't have thought that it was in flight, due to the fact it was on the runway or taxiing.
Unless during the transition at rotation when the main wheels are on the ground and the nosewheel is in the air and the wings are producing lift, the Captain has the opportunity to open a side window and bomb the piano keys with aformentioned Al-Queda mobile phone super bomb.
It would appear Jobs worths and The Big Bad Al have won again.
Unless during the transition at rotation when the main wheels are on the ground and the nosewheel is in the air and the wings are producing lift, the Captain has the opportunity to open a side window and bomb the piano keys with aformentioned Al-Queda mobile phone super bomb.
It would appear Jobs worths and The Big Bad Al have won again.
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Meaning of in flight
The following is the UK definition of flight.
UK Air Navigation Order Article 256:- (1) An aircraft is deemed to be in flight:
(a) in the case of a piloted flying machine, from the moment when, after the
embarkation of its crew for the purpose of taking off, it first moves under its
own power, until the moment when it next comes to rest after landing.
UK Air Navigation Order Article 256:- (1) An aircraft is deemed to be in flight:
(a) in the case of a piloted flying machine, from the moment when, after the
embarkation of its crew for the purpose of taking off, it first moves under its
own power, until the moment when it next comes to rest after landing.
The question is why were ATC so unhelpful, even obstructive and why the heavy handed approach with police involved.
Agreed, I've had this happen at LHR and ATC were on the spot with a leader vehicle within minutes ( and FWIW the advice from security was remember it's been screened).
.... and if we're reduced to dissecting the ANO over this, for whatever reason, then UK commercial aviation might as well shut up shop right now
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Quote.
.... and if we're reduced to dissecting the ANO over this, for whatever reason, then UK commercial aviation might as well shut up shop right now
I could not agree more there is something about a small section of pilots in the UK who are so hung up on the rules that they let common sense & safety go out of the window to stay inside what they see as the letter of the law.
.... and if we're reduced to dissecting the ANO over this, for whatever reason, then UK commercial aviation might as well shut up shop right now
I could not agree more there is something about a small section of pilots in the UK who are so hung up on the rules that they let common sense & safety go out of the window to stay inside what they see as the letter of the law.
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Captain's prerogative.. He's in charge. Its his call.
He didn't sacrifice a kitten on the FMC, he tossed out a security risk.
I would do it, WE have done it countless times with items left by ground staff, paperwork. Its a non story.. one the British media would rather play up than the fact your country is bankrupt and your aircraft carriers have no planes, or any number of other things the public should be concerned about.
Bloody Drivel...
He didn't sacrifice a kitten on the FMC, he tossed out a security risk.
I would do it, WE have done it countless times with items left by ground staff, paperwork. Its a non story.. one the British media would rather play up than the fact your country is bankrupt and your aircraft carriers have no planes, or any number of other things the public should be concerned about.
Bloody Drivel...
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Captain's prerogative.. He's in charge. Its his call.
He didn't sacrifice a kitten on the FMC, he tossed out a security risk.
I would do it, WE have done it countless times with items left by ground staff, paperwork. Its a non story.. one the British media would rather play up than the fact your country is bankrupt and your aircraft carriers have no planes, or any number of other things the public should be concerned about.
Bloody Drivel...
He didn't sacrifice a kitten on the FMC, he tossed out a security risk.
I would do it, WE have done it countless times with items left by ground staff, paperwork. Its a non story.. one the British media would rather play up than the fact your country is bankrupt and your aircraft carriers have no planes, or any number of other things the public should be concerned about.
Bloody Drivel...
However, 'Outraged of Tunbridge Wells' would have nothing to moan about.
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Not so long ago at least one airline had cc checking under each seat between segments with a mirror-on-a-stick. Security measures seem to come with a short memory sometimes, though.