American MD-83 LGA wing tip contact May 5, 2011
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American MD-83 LGA wing tip contact May 5, 2011
From FAA:
"IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: N966TW Make/Model: MD80 Description: MD-81/82/83/87/88
Date: 05/05/2011 Time: 2104
Event Type: Incident Highest Injury: None Mid Air: N Missing: N
Damage: Unknown
LOCATION
City: FLUSHING State: NY Country: US
DESCRIPTION
AMERICAN AIRLINES FLIGHT 366, A MCDONALD DOUGLAS MD83 AIRPLANE, LANDING,
EXECUTED A MISSED APPROACH, STRUCK LEFT WING TIP ON RUNWAY, AIRPLANE LANDED
WITHOUT INCIDENT ON SECOND ATTEMPT, FLUSHING, NY
INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 0
# Crew: 2 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Pass: 98 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
WEATHER: 052104Z 31017G25KT 10SM SCT095 17/M04 A2988
OTHER DATA
Activity: Business Phase: Landing Operation: OTHER
FAA FSDO: FARMINGDALE, NY (EA11) Entry date: 05/06/2011"
From JACDEC - Current News"
"Immediately before touchdown on runway 22 in strong winds, the pilots elected to abort the lading and to execute a go-around. Before the aircraft gained suffiicient heigt, its left wingtip contacted the runway surface resulting in minor damage. The pilots made a safe landing on runway 31 about 20 minutes later."
"IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: N966TW Make/Model: MD80 Description: MD-81/82/83/87/88
Date: 05/05/2011 Time: 2104
Event Type: Incident Highest Injury: None Mid Air: N Missing: N
Damage: Unknown
LOCATION
City: FLUSHING State: NY Country: US
DESCRIPTION
AMERICAN AIRLINES FLIGHT 366, A MCDONALD DOUGLAS MD83 AIRPLANE, LANDING,
EXECUTED A MISSED APPROACH, STRUCK LEFT WING TIP ON RUNWAY, AIRPLANE LANDED
WITHOUT INCIDENT ON SECOND ATTEMPT, FLUSHING, NY
INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 0
# Crew: 2 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Pass: 98 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
WEATHER: 052104Z 31017G25KT 10SM SCT095 17/M04 A2988
OTHER DATA
Activity: Business Phase: Landing Operation: OTHER
FAA FSDO: FARMINGDALE, NY (EA11) Entry date: 05/06/2011"
From JACDEC - Current News"
"Immediately before touchdown on runway 22 in strong winds, the pilots elected to abort the lading and to execute a go-around. Before the aircraft gained suffiicient heigt, its left wingtip contacted the runway surface resulting in minor damage. The pilots made a safe landing on runway 31 about 20 minutes later."
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Why on Earth would you land on RWY22 in this wind if there is a runway that is completely into the wind?!
Does LGA have a preferential RWY policy or is RWY31 restricted in any way?
Does LGA have a preferential RWY policy or is RWY31 restricted in any way?
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Well, first off I don't think the TABS controlling the ailerons have anything to do with anything. The DC9/MD80 is a fine maneuverable plane, which also has roll spoilers which are hydraulic. I do hasten to add that if the other types, 737/a320 were there, they might have touched an engine.
I am going to guess that the captain was flying...or did I miss something in the report?
There is a human articulation problem in my view, something that isn't often considered...flying from the right, with the RIGHT hand on the yoke, the natural tendency would be to drop the right wing (just the heaviness of the right hand).
Flying from the left seat, the left hand might drop and you would get the left wing to drop...
The reported winds are within the crosswind capability of this type, so they had every right to try the landing. However, as we have seen in other wx related problems, sometimes the wx is WORSE than reported.
AS a practical matter, I would love to see HALF the crosswind capability be the limiting factor for ATC selection of runways.
I am going to guess that the captain was flying...or did I miss something in the report?
There is a human articulation problem in my view, something that isn't often considered...flying from the right, with the RIGHT hand on the yoke, the natural tendency would be to drop the right wing (just the heaviness of the right hand).
Flying from the left seat, the left hand might drop and you would get the left wing to drop...
The reported winds are within the crosswind capability of this type, so they had every right to try the landing. However, as we have seen in other wx related problems, sometimes the wx is WORSE than reported.
AS a practical matter, I would love to see HALF the crosswind capability be the limiting factor for ATC selection of runways.
I don't think the TABS controlling the ailerons have anything to do with anything. The DC9/MD80 is a fine maneuverable plane
I would love to see HALF the crosswind capability be the limiting factor for ATC selection of runways.
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I flew the 9 for 11 years and I thought it was just fine in roll and I flew it right to the crosswind limit on more than one occasion. either the wind was much worse than the first post indicated or the pilots were a bit sloppy.poppy
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fine, we disagree a bit on roll quality, but that is subjective...however the plane demonstrated x wind capability at the hands of at least one pilot.
so, it is my view that either the pilot wasn't ready or the plane encountered winds beyond its capability and those winds were not recorded or reported.
so, it is my view that either the pilot wasn't ready or the plane encountered winds beyond its capability and those winds were not recorded or reported.
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I have a couple thousand hours in both seats of MD80's and disagree much with the statement by stilton that his MD80's were sluggish and unresponsive to roll control inputs. Maybe a little sluggish, but positively not unresponsive.
Lots of DC9/MD80/717's flying millions of flights over the decades with I would submit the very rare Douglas Death Tube
displaying scratched or bent wingtips caused by non-responsive roll.
Lots of DC9/MD80/717's flying millions of flights over the decades with I would submit the very rare Douglas Death Tube
displaying scratched or bent wingtips caused by non-responsive roll.
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so tacky. must be out of jealousy akali.
by the way, minimum flap , while possibly saving fuel, is largely due to decreased noise.
there is an offset to runway 22 for noise...but in the grand scheme of things, either you are ready to be a pilot or you are not.
its not the plane...they've been around a heckuva long time.
the airport is the way it is and hasn't changed in 30 years
either the pilot wasn't ready or the winds were stronger than advertised. sometimes you have to grit your teeth and get the thing in there.
by the way, minimum flap , while possibly saving fuel, is largely due to decreased noise.
there is an offset to runway 22 for noise...but in the grand scheme of things, either you are ready to be a pilot or you are not.
its not the plane...they've been around a heckuva long time.
the airport is the way it is and hasn't changed in 30 years
either the pilot wasn't ready or the winds were stronger than advertised. sometimes you have to grit your teeth and get the thing in there.
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I flew the MD80 to its crosswind limit many times with no problems. I don't know what happened but don't think it had anything to do with the airplane. I prefered Boeing but the MD80 was fine. I just didn't want to fly an Airbus.
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Originally Posted by bubbers44
I just didn't want to fly an Airbus.
I can assure you that the widebody 'Buses are good as gold in a blistering crosswind
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white knight...when it comes to flying (or anything else for that matter) bubbers isn't a pussy.
however the airbus has always given me great joy, nothing funnier than watching someone try to land an airbus 320 series in a real strong crosswind...reminds me of buster keaton taking a prat fall.
however the airbus has always given me great joy, nothing funnier than watching someone try to land an airbus 320 series in a real strong crosswind...reminds me of buster keaton taking a prat fall.
Mistrust in Management
White Knight
American pussy I can assure you that the widebody 'Buses are good as gold in a blistering crosswind
Ahhhh - back on a Boeing now.
Regards
Exeng
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Akali ...... You must be peeved at the self righteous western pilots that abound in pprune with their condescending and prickly ways ala sky gods. These are aberrations in aviation and they do all of us pilots no favors. So don't be one on the other end of the spectrum.
This incident shouldn't have happened but it did. So what do we do or where do we go from here? Big lessons to be learnt. Of course, some super aces are going to say the pilots are sloppy but remember sudden gusts of crosswind can be deadly and some people do get unlucky. Some will say they should have ask for another runway; well New York ATC are pretty pompous and anal with regards to requests for other runways. You can expect to be vectored to the back of the heap and end up with possible fuel issues.
I hope this incident add to the leverage on New York ATC to use runways more sensibly.
This incident shouldn't have happened but it did. So what do we do or where do we go from here? Big lessons to be learnt. Of course, some super aces are going to say the pilots are sloppy but remember sudden gusts of crosswind can be deadly and some people do get unlucky. Some will say they should have ask for another runway; well New York ATC are pretty pompous and anal with regards to requests for other runways. You can expect to be vectored to the back of the heap and end up with possible fuel issues.
I hope this incident add to the leverage on New York ATC to use runways more sensibly.
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Not wanting to fly an Airbus has nothing to do with pilot ability or skill, it has to do with manufacturer confidence. I don't think a pussy would fly a 727 and 757 into Tegucigalpa, Honduras for 6 years, declared the most dangerous airport for airliners in the world in a recent study but would choose not to bid the A300 because he didn't trust the airplane because of numerous close calls, then the JFK crash. Sten was the scapegoat for that one for alleged rudder use, we will have to wait a bit for the AF447 results. I'm pretty sure what the results of that accident will be too.
By the way, about 2 yrs after I retired Taca put an Airbus off the runway at Tegucigalpa off the cliff with many casualties. I just trusted my Boeings. Automation is wonderful if you don't let your control over it be overridden by a computer. If you don't mind the computer taking over your command of the aircraft then I guess the Airbus is fine. My neighbor loves it and says all computers can fly better than any pilot. I hope he is right for his sake because soon he won't have the skills to help it if it breaks.
By the way, about 2 yrs after I retired Taca put an Airbus off the runway at Tegucigalpa off the cliff with many casualties. I just trusted my Boeings. Automation is wonderful if you don't let your control over it be overridden by a computer. If you don't mind the computer taking over your command of the aircraft then I guess the Airbus is fine. My neighbor loves it and says all computers can fly better than any pilot. I hope he is right for his sake because soon he won't have the skills to help it if it breaks.
bubbers44,
Not wanting to derail the thread, but my last flight a couple of days ago with a female captain (very agonizing experience) got me thinking. Has there been a case in the recent past where SOP's were of little help and good aviation knowledge like airmanship saved the day?
Rwy in Sight
Not wanting to derail the thread, but my last flight a couple of days ago with a female captain (very agonizing experience) got me thinking. Has there been a case in the recent past where SOP's were of little help and good aviation knowledge like airmanship saved the day?
Rwy in Sight
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one that comes to mind is this one
Incident: British Airways B744 at Johannesburg on May 11th 2009, two thrust reversers indicated open, leading edge flaps retracted
Incident: British Airways B744 at Johannesburg on May 11th 2009, two thrust reversers indicated open, leading edge flaps retracted
