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AF A330 severe hard landing ccs

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AF A330 severe hard landing ccs

Old 30th Apr 2011, 08:16
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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If there is an undercarraige problem indicated, and you have to burn fuel for THREE hours, and then risk a heavy landing, isn't it more logical to proceed to your destination to make the landing ?
CY Flyer, if the gear had fully retracted I would agree with you.

However if there was a warning it would indicate the gear was not fully retracted in which case you would be limited to gear operational speeds in cruise, (the Boeing equivalent is 270 knots IAS.) Also there would be unknown extra drag implications depending on how much drag there was from the gear doors or undercarriage leg and wheels. Faced with such an uncertain situation no one would want to launch off across the atlantic with nothing en route until the Azores.
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Old 30th Apr 2011, 09:01
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Or, you could use the fuel to fly to an easier airport with longer runway.

As far as french mentality is concerned the situation is hopeless unless the blood factor is involved particularly with non Airbus aircraft.
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Old 30th Apr 2011, 09:20
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Happened at Swissair

same thing happened at Swissair. They landed a A321 very hard, next crew took off and landing gear did not retract. Airplane was a hull loss.
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Old 30th Apr 2011, 09:22
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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CY flyer
Before continuing a flight you must consider plausible single failures. I doubt the performance of a heavy 330 gear down one eng inop is particulary impressive. Additionally if a heavy landing has caused an undetected gear problem then it begs the question of what other undetected structural damage is there? The decision of the AF crew in this scenario is understandable.
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Old 30th Apr 2011, 16:40
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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same thing happened at Swissair.
Do you have specifics ?
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Old 30th Apr 2011, 17:21
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Some infos

In short, the Load 15 Report is immediately available with a few keystrokes using any of the three MCDUs. Station personnel should be sufficiently competent to read such ACMS Reports.
A few facts :
1° Hard landing at CCS reported by crew
2° No report 15 generated ( neither automatically nor available in the system).
3° Two ground engineers perform an independant inspection according to information 1 and 2.
4° The F/O performs a throrough preflight according to info 1°
5° Incident with flight CCS-CDG
6° Next day, at power up of the aircraft a report 15 for the leg CDG-CCS is emitted and available.

I'll let you speculate.
This will be my only post on the subject.

Last edited by pgroell; 30th Apr 2011 at 17:22. Reason: Typo
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Old 1st May 2011, 05:04
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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Could it be like the A346, another case of the Managed Speed curse of this design?

Air France looks like an airline with endemic CRM or poor pilot handling issues. It cannot be long before the carrier is forced to undertake a KAL style safety audit.

korean airlines internal audit safety report

Since KAL reviewed their procedures after a series of notable crashes and accidents, they have not had any further hull losses. The French have banned many airlines from its airspace for allegedly having poor safety and aircraft maintenance concerns, but do not appear to accept that something is seriously wrong with their own national carrier.
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Old 1st May 2011, 06:31
  #48 (permalink)  
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The French have banned many airlines from its airspace for allegedly having poor safety and aircraft maintenance concerns, but do not appear to accept that something is seriously wrong with their own national carrier.
Perhaps because it is far easier to board an African aircraft and check the dates on oxygen and fire extinguisher bottles than to question some training practices in one's National carrier ?
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Old 1st May 2011, 07:28
  #49 (permalink)  
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A few facts :
1° Hard landing at CCS reported by crew
2° No report 15 generated ( neither automatically nor available in the system).
3° Two ground engineers perform an independant inspection according to information 1 and 2.
4° The F/O performs a throrough preflight according to info 1°
5° Incident with flight CCS-CDG
6° Next day, at power up of the aircraft a report 15 for the leg CDG-CCS is emitted and available.
I can confirm this is the info I received also in CCS..
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Old 1st May 2011, 14:41
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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A few facts :
1° Hard landing at CCS reported by crew
2° No report 15 generated ( neither automatically nor available in the system).
3° Two ground engineers perform an independant inspection according to information 1 and 2.
4° The F/O performs a throrough preflight according to info 1°
5° Incident with flight CCS-CDG
6° Next day, at power up of the aircraft a report 15 for the leg CDG-CCS is emitted and available.
A few more facts on point # 5 :
- after take off : landing gear did NOT retract ;
- aircraft remained in "ground mode" : no pressurisation ; outflow valves fully open etc...

In this specific case I fail to see anything wrong with "CRM" or "pilot handling".

The ground engineers did not perform any better (or worse) than those of other airlines facing the same situation (Monarch / SR? etc...).
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Old 1st May 2011, 15:06
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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I assume there is a document specifying the inspection to be performed? How many pages/drawings?
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Old 1st May 2011, 20:26
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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same thing happened at Swissair.
Any details available? As far as I know swissair operated 12 A321 and all remain active to date, some with Swiss some with other airlines...
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Old 1st May 2011, 20:59
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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These landings are determined by the accelerometers, however, a "hard landing 15 report" is also issued from a hard sideways landing, meaning the gear has taken an extreme side loading from a crabbed crosswind landing on the downwind gear for example.

This is I believe the most penalizing, as it would seem not hard but the angle for the load was extreme.
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Old 2nd May 2011, 06:54
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Originally Posted by mansaloco View Post
All right!! That's enough!! I say it is time to list AF in the black book of airlines!
Mansaloco makes a valid point.

I might take my chances flying on an air carrier based in, say, the Democratic Republic of Congo, or Equatorial Guinea, or OhMyGawdStan or some other blacklisted country like those, because the high accident rates in those countries are more or less evenly attributed across all the carriers from those countries.

But in the case of Air France, it's time to acknowledge the elephant in the room - there is only one French air carrier who keeps showing up in the news on a regular basis with accidents, runway excursions, damaged aircraft, etc., etc., and that's Air France.

Enough already, I'm not going to fly on Air France again. Maybe if other passengers made the same decision and Air France start to see their load factors decline they might get the message and clean up their act.
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Old 2nd May 2011, 11:51
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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there is only one French air carrier who keeps showing up in the news
Out of how many?
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Old 2nd May 2011, 12:45
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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Good point, Shorrick Mk2
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Old 2nd May 2011, 14:31
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Shorrick Mk2
there is only one French air carrier who keeps showing up in the news
Out of how many?
118 AOCs, as at 1 July 2010

Originally Posted by V1... Ooops
Maybe if other passengers made the same decision and Air France start to see their load factors decline they might get the message and clean up their act.
... except the vast majority of the French who want to travel by air firmly believe that AF is the absolute best carrier in the world and are happy to pay over the odds for what they know is a superior service because it's French.

If there was any decrease in LF, management would blame it on foreigners being fickle and appeal to their loyal followers to make up the difference.

It's only by living with them that I've come to understand just how many mental blocks your average Frenchman carries with him from cradle to grave.
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Old 2nd May 2011, 14:49
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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As SLF, now avoid flying AF (Aerofrog). Had two experiences which seem to typify their attitude to safety:

1) Takeoff from Frankfurt in an A320. When the FA was stiill giving the safety demonstration, the aircraft accerated and she ran down the fuselage trying to avoid falling over.

2) Landing Douala in a 747-200. The screen in front of my seat had a sign " The screen must be open for take-off and landing". It was closed.

Have never flown with them since
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Old 2nd May 2011, 20:14
  #59 (permalink)  

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Agenda or ...,

V1 OOPs ! :
Enough already, I'm not going to fly on Air France again.
I might take my chances flying on an air carrier based in, say, the Democratic Republic of Congo, or Equatorial Guinea, or OhMyGawdStan or some other blacklisted country like those, because the high accident rates in those countries are more or less evenly attributed across all the carriers from those countries.
... You get the point.
In this case, I suggest you take a look at American Airlines which has seen 2087 deaths (This includes the 1530 people who died on 11 September 2001) in the pāst twelve years against AF 327 ( Concorde and AF447).
I also suggest you take a look at Southwest- which seem to make a nasty habit of spectacular runway excursions and metal fatigue. But I give you that they are lucky. Two examples that come to mind. Am I alone ?
And ponder the fact that had the engines stuck on idle on that BA 777 done it just 30 seconds earlier, thre toll would have been quite different and the statistics not so glorious.
Thank God for his blessings !
I don't mind critics. Imbecillic chauvinistic points of view are something else.
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Old 2nd May 2011, 20:38
  #60 (permalink)  
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And ponder the fact that had the engines stuck on idle on that BA 777 done it just 30 seconds earlier, thre toll would have been quite different and the statistics not so glorious.
Through no fault of the airline.

The point with AF is the number of incidents, all (AF 447 pending) self inflicted. Fatalities is not the only measure. YYZ, JFK and now CCS all non fatal but serious incidents resulting in major airframe damage/write offs, it doesnt look good.

How many write offs has BA or Lufty had in the last 12 years (or indeed 20)? AF however, 2011 ERJ - JFK (caused by AF) 2009 A330 - Atlantic, 2007 F100 - Pau, 2005 A340 - Toronto, 2003 CRJ - Brest, 2000 Concorde - Gonesse, 1999 747F - Chennai, 1999 737 - Biarritz. And if we go back to 1991 theres yet more.
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