Crap ATC at TFS today.
Guest
Posts: n/a
EGGW, with regard to your comment about the Spanish looking after their own, I have to say that it is only (as usual) the UK who are impartial to the nationality of the aircraft that they're dealing with....
The standing joke in our company is that Dublin ATC will stick you in the hold at TULSO so as to accomodate a Shamrock who's just departed CDG,AMS,JFK etc and make sure he gets in first...And that kind of thing happens everywhere in Europe.
Give me London ATC any day of the week, although I have to add that I love the way the Yanks do it......
The standing joke in our company is that Dublin ATC will stick you in the hold at TULSO so as to accomodate a Shamrock who's just departed CDG,AMS,JFK etc and make sure he gets in first...And that kind of thing happens everywhere in Europe.
Give me London ATC any day of the week, although I have to add that I love the way the Yanks do it......
Guest
Posts: n/a
In some respects, Canaries ATC do a good
job in a busy piece of airspace. Remember
the days before TFS had a one-way system
around the island ?
However there are problems on almost
every time I go down there these days.
Most of these are trivial and annoying rather
than in any respect dangerous. However the
age-old problem of local prejudice towards
national operators is without doubt one of
those facts of life which will not change in
the forseeable future.
Don't you sometimes wish that the whole
place was about an hour further north ?
Speaking of the Canaries - is the direct
translation from Spanish to English the
following:
BINTER = Cowboy who does not or will not
speak English ?
job in a busy piece of airspace. Remember
the days before TFS had a one-way system
around the island ?
However there are problems on almost
every time I go down there these days.
Most of these are trivial and annoying rather
than in any respect dangerous. However the
age-old problem of local prejudice towards
national operators is without doubt one of
those facts of life which will not change in
the forseeable future.
Don't you sometimes wish that the whole
place was about an hour further north ?
Speaking of the Canaries - is the direct
translation from Spanish to English the
following:
BINTER = Cowboy who does not or will not
speak English ?
Guest
Posts: n/a
411A - I resent the fact you think the UK ATC system is 'out of step in aviation matters'. I think even you know just how untrue that statement is. The words you are looking for is we are SAFE. Our procedures are fair and SAFE, our seperations have to be proven to keep it SAFE, anticipations of a pilot are plain ridiculous. What is that going to achieve in an incident other than a big mess to clear up again? 'Oh, the pilot was in the wrong' because he didn't take that first high speed due to the 2000' tailwind? Obviously ATC are fully aware of all the factors (yeh right). I think if you don't like the procedures elsewhere or even in the UK you should file an MOR, that's what they are there for. Improvements come from paperwork to be investigated, NOT grumblings on a busy frequency. If your company doesn't like you doing it, then they certainly haven't got your best intrests at heart.
----to keep 'em SAFE, "you gotta keep 'em seperated" (quote Dexter Holland-1993)
----to keep 'em SAFE, "you gotta keep 'em seperated" (quote Dexter Holland-1993)
Guest
Posts: n/a
Bagheera (and any other UK ATCOs in PPrune)
I would like to tell You that UK ATC is by far simply the best I've come along.
Back to the topic: there is a number of airports (Stockholm Aarlanda has not yet been mentioned) where You are cleared to land being not number one. I don't have a problem with that UNLESS You are totally aware of that !
Especially CDG with soon 4 parallel runways and intermittent inbound traffic to Le Bourget also passing through the approach path is a very bad example of flying without knowing how many aircraft are still ahead to land on the same runway.
THIS is the only reason I am glad I've been learning french at school, I can figure out much more traffic around than if I would only speak english. Shame on french laws for prohibiting ATC to talk english to french aircraft !
Wouldn't it be interesting to see a ranking of good/bad ATC in the view of pprune's pilots?
My votes are:
1. EGLL
2. EDDF
3. ESSA
Last:
UKBB,LROP,OSDI
------------------
This Airbus is o.k., but why did it come with a RENAULT key ??
I would like to tell You that UK ATC is by far simply the best I've come along.
Back to the topic: there is a number of airports (Stockholm Aarlanda has not yet been mentioned) where You are cleared to land being not number one. I don't have a problem with that UNLESS You are totally aware of that !
Especially CDG with soon 4 parallel runways and intermittent inbound traffic to Le Bourget also passing through the approach path is a very bad example of flying without knowing how many aircraft are still ahead to land on the same runway.
THIS is the only reason I am glad I've been learning french at school, I can figure out much more traffic around than if I would only speak english. Shame on french laws for prohibiting ATC to talk english to french aircraft !
Wouldn't it be interesting to see a ranking of good/bad ATC in the view of pprune's pilots?
My votes are:
1. EGLL
2. EDDF
3. ESSA
Last:
UKBB,LROP,OSDI
------------------
This Airbus is o.k., but why did it come with a RENAULT key ??
Guest
Posts: n/a
I really worry about some foreign ATC units sometimes. The following two examples happened to me recently...
1. Taking off on runway 20 at Barcelona, ATC cleared an A320 to land on runway 25 before we had passed the intersection on the takeoff run !!!
2. After landing on runway 18 at Stavanger, ATC cleared the aircraft behind us to land BEFORE we had vacated the runway.
Someone clearly should "have a word" with these controllers. This kind of ATC procedure is an accident waiting to happen !!!
1. Taking off on runway 20 at Barcelona, ATC cleared an A320 to land on runway 25 before we had passed the intersection on the takeoff run !!!
2. After landing on runway 18 at Stavanger, ATC cleared the aircraft behind us to land BEFORE we had vacated the runway.
Someone clearly should "have a word" with these controllers. This kind of ATC procedure is an accident waiting to happen !!!
Guest
Posts: n/a
411A
I would hope that this is true for the dutch, as they are trained by UK controllers!
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">I would argue that the ATC services in, for example, FRA, AMS & ZRH are just as good (if not better) than LHR.</font>
Guest
Posts: n/a
ATC Watcher, it won't matter what our board of directors want to do to increase the capacity at our airfields and in our airspace. The standards are set by the safety reguator, as are the procedures, they are safe, orderly and as expeditious as they can be given the constraints that we work with.
The US system based on anticipated separation is all well and good if the pilots are on the ball and do what they are expected to do.
I've lost count of the number of times I've cleared an a/c for i"immediate" ttake off, only for the pilot to sit on the runway for close to a minute before applying the power, so the poor guy / gal, on short final, who was expecting late landing clearance while i attempt to make the best use of limited runway capacity gets sent round, and the guy on the runway has to hit the brakes.
Imagine if I'd given a "land after the departing", we're then into the realms of essential traffic information, an almighty loss of separation and a whole lot of paperwork and the subsequent interviews
Give me a system that is safe and deosn't rely on what the controller thinks a pilot will do!
------------------
Turn left heading 230, close from the left, report established
The US system based on anticipated separation is all well and good if the pilots are on the ball and do what they are expected to do.
I've lost count of the number of times I've cleared an a/c for i"immediate" ttake off, only for the pilot to sit on the runway for close to a minute before applying the power, so the poor guy / gal, on short final, who was expecting late landing clearance while i attempt to make the best use of limited runway capacity gets sent round, and the guy on the runway has to hit the brakes.
Imagine if I'd given a "land after the departing", we're then into the realms of essential traffic information, an almighty loss of separation and a whole lot of paperwork and the subsequent interviews
Give me a system that is safe and deosn't rely on what the controller thinks a pilot will do!
------------------
Turn left heading 230, close from the left, report established
Guest
Posts: n/a
There is no doubt at all that UK ATC is the safest in the world; light years ahead of, for example, the French, where politics seems more of an issue than safety.
However safe UK ATC is, it is certainly not the most expeditious. The Americans probably get that crown, but then they compromise ultimate, bulletproof safety for speed and convenience. Some might think that the USA is less safe on a practical level, but the facts appear to be that they have very few incidents directly attributable to their ATC procedures- so the issue becomes one of national ATC policy.
I remember with some amusement, a few years ago, watching Mary Goldring quizzing a senior ATC person as to why LHR does not reduce separation to US standards to get better runway utilisation. The amusing bit was watching the ATC person trying to explain why, without appearing rude or disparaging. He did well, I thought- besides, Mary Goldring knows basically nothing about aviation. She couldn't comprehend the safety v. speed argument at all.
The point here is that governments set ATC standards and policy, taking the best advice they can. It is not up to ATCOs, they simply enforce policy, so don't get down on other countries' ATCOs when they operate in accordance with their SOPs.
However, this from ATC Watcher displays an alarming lack of insight into the problem:
>> On the other end, if you do not like these new procedures,why not just refuse them and go around, if enough of you do it, I am sure the beans counters in your airlines will figure it out fast that it was cheaper to keep the old (safer) procedures. <<
The bottom line is, no company is going to have much sympathy for, or patience with, pilots who do such a thing- particularly if the company is happy with the procedures. That is quick way to get yourself very unpopular indeed!
Me, I'm with Bagheera.
However safe UK ATC is, it is certainly not the most expeditious. The Americans probably get that crown, but then they compromise ultimate, bulletproof safety for speed and convenience. Some might think that the USA is less safe on a practical level, but the facts appear to be that they have very few incidents directly attributable to their ATC procedures- so the issue becomes one of national ATC policy.
I remember with some amusement, a few years ago, watching Mary Goldring quizzing a senior ATC person as to why LHR does not reduce separation to US standards to get better runway utilisation. The amusing bit was watching the ATC person trying to explain why, without appearing rude or disparaging. He did well, I thought- besides, Mary Goldring knows basically nothing about aviation. She couldn't comprehend the safety v. speed argument at all.
The point here is that governments set ATC standards and policy, taking the best advice they can. It is not up to ATCOs, they simply enforce policy, so don't get down on other countries' ATCOs when they operate in accordance with their SOPs.
However, this from ATC Watcher displays an alarming lack of insight into the problem:
>> On the other end, if you do not like these new procedures,why not just refuse them and go around, if enough of you do it, I am sure the beans counters in your airlines will figure it out fast that it was cheaper to keep the old (safer) procedures. <<
The bottom line is, no company is going to have much sympathy for, or patience with, pilots who do such a thing- particularly if the company is happy with the procedures. That is quick way to get yourself very unpopular indeed!
Me, I'm with Bagheera.
Guest
Posts: n/a
On the same lines,
how often do ATC hear the line "we have vacated" from an aircraft still in the middle of the runway? Always goes down well in low vis. We ain't gonna tell ya if our SMR/GMR/ASMGCS (whatever it's called this month) is working or not, and as soon as you report vacated a flight level or runway the theory is that it's ours to re-allocate. All I say is, please don't report vacated when ya haven't!!
how often do ATC hear the line "we have vacated" from an aircraft still in the middle of the runway? Always goes down well in low vis. We ain't gonna tell ya if our SMR/GMR/ASMGCS (whatever it's called this month) is working or not, and as soon as you report vacated a flight level or runway the theory is that it's ours to re-allocate. All I say is, please don't report vacated when ya haven't!!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Would have to agree that the controllers at LHR do exercise extreme patience with acft that are told...."cleared for immediate takeoff" and then sit...and sit...and sit.
Wonder why they just don't push up the taps and GO? Picking their nose perhaps?
Wonder why they just don't push up the taps and GO? Picking their nose perhaps?
Guest
Posts: n/a
Don't be silly, 411A. Could be a number of things. Common ones include cabin not ready (for example if a pax stands up and tries to use the toilet, believe me it happens), minor tech glitch, last minute amendments to a brief, etc. I don't think they do it intentionally- although they should know better at a place like LHR...
Pegase Driver
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Europe
Age: 74
Posts: 3,694
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Raw Data : my remark (that you quoted) was meant to be sarcastic, not to be taken ad verbatim !
The one that pays our salaries is always right isn't it ?
(Ooops, too sarcastic again....)
The one that pays our salaries is always right isn't it ?
(Ooops, too sarcastic again....)
Guest
Posts: n/a
To maxmobil , the ATC expert....
When I want to know if a steak is good, I'm asking a butcher , and when buying a new car I try to get advices from a car distributor.
If I want with some pretension to know if an ATC OPS Center is good or bad ( those two adjectives seems to be very poor to qualify an ATC service... ) I will surely not ask a pilot !!!.
Your vision of ATC, from the sharp end of radio communications, is to real ATC work what is a Disney cartoon compared to the the last Spielberg movie.
I spend roughly 17,000 hours of ATC OPS business most of them in this soon 4 runways airport north of Paris. This means I have heard a lot of these whimpering comments about ATC coming from cockpit experts.( I still d'ont understand why ATC managers d'ont hired Pilots - I mean anglo-saxon pilots, the crack regiment - instead of ATC/O . What kind of wonderfull air world we can get after that!!)
To come back on your statement about the use of french on frequencies and your assumption that it can figure you more traffic around , I am pleased to welcome on PPrune a pilot who can fly an aircraft when sharply - with no ATC training- monitor 4 frequencies at the same time,wich should be the case at the airport cited above !!!
But may be it's a reason why 12% -roughly- of the upbound messages should be transmitted twice before you answered...
We are at the begenning of the 21th century, it's time to leave your piedestal, do YOUR job as a professionnal, and let ATC/Os do THEIR JOB for which they have been trained.
Read the ICAO initial statement of the choice of an international language for aviation : english was an intermediate choice by default before work groups can find something else. We are still waiting for such work groups since that time but political lobbies have been invented...
I am optimistic about the democratic future of mankind but I am afraid that the use of english language will remain the last surviving totalitarism....
When I want to know if a steak is good, I'm asking a butcher , and when buying a new car I try to get advices from a car distributor.
If I want with some pretension to know if an ATC OPS Center is good or bad ( those two adjectives seems to be very poor to qualify an ATC service... ) I will surely not ask a pilot !!!.
Your vision of ATC, from the sharp end of radio communications, is to real ATC work what is a Disney cartoon compared to the the last Spielberg movie.
I spend roughly 17,000 hours of ATC OPS business most of them in this soon 4 runways airport north of Paris. This means I have heard a lot of these whimpering comments about ATC coming from cockpit experts.( I still d'ont understand why ATC managers d'ont hired Pilots - I mean anglo-saxon pilots, the crack regiment - instead of ATC/O . What kind of wonderfull air world we can get after that!!)
To come back on your statement about the use of french on frequencies and your assumption that it can figure you more traffic around , I am pleased to welcome on PPrune a pilot who can fly an aircraft when sharply - with no ATC training- monitor 4 frequencies at the same time,wich should be the case at the airport cited above !!!
But may be it's a reason why 12% -roughly- of the upbound messages should be transmitted twice before you answered...
We are at the begenning of the 21th century, it's time to leave your piedestal, do YOUR job as a professionnal, and let ATC/Os do THEIR JOB for which they have been trained.
Read the ICAO initial statement of the choice of an international language for aviation : english was an intermediate choice by default before work groups can find something else. We are still waiting for such work groups since that time but political lobbies have been invented...
I am optimistic about the democratic future of mankind but I am afraid that the use of english language will remain the last surviving totalitarism....
Guest
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Read the ICAO initial statement of the choice of an international language for aviation : english was an intermediate choice by default before work groups can find something else. We are still waiting for such work groups since that time but political lobbies have been invented...
I am optimistic about the democratic future of mankind but I am afraid that the use of english language will remain the last surviving totalitarism....
______________________________________
Come on A7700, are you trouly suggesting that we should use french... as THE ICAO language ???
Guest
Posts: n/a
Let's face it. If you want to hear crap ATC, go to CDG. I'm flying in there several flights a week. Last week I was cleared to land on first call to tower as usual- as number six. And when you really like to hear wat's going on around you, the suckers are talking french. If I remember correct, there was a Streamline SD330 accident involving a Liberté MD80. Wasn't that the same crap ATC talking frog language again. And do not talk about pilots and ATC controllers. I have my 5 years working both TWR and ATCC, so I know the difference between pilots and wannabees.
------------------
nofuzz
------------------
nofuzz
Guest
Posts: n/a
ATC Watcher -
Sorry mate, I'm not very clever, if you don't use the ole smilies it's hard to tell what you mean!!
A7700 - Your written English and spelling are marginal, which makes you 200% better than some of the people in CDG ATC!!
OK, OK, sorry, couldn't resist it.
Point is, there are some things French ATC around CDG do very well indeed, for example sequencing and speed control (I have never had to hold in three years flying into CDG). However, they are sometimes difficult to understand, and sometimes issue contradictory instructions (especially on ground).
Some recent gems include being cleared to cross 26R whilst an A320 was rolling for takeoff on that runway, being cleared above FL100 on departure only to have it cancelled when we were only 200 feet below the path of another aircraft, and having to "descend urgently" (this before TCAS), being cleared to descend on the ILS when there was another aircraft directly below us on the localiser, ending up halfway down quebec taxiway and coming face to face with a 777 who had been sent the other way... and on it goes. I have filed more MORs in the three years I have been flying in French airspace than in my entire career outside French airspace.
If we don't answer, it is often because we are looking at each other in the cockpit, trying to work out what it is we have been told to do.
Last week, flying down to Chambery, we were cleared to a reporting point that neither of us had heard of, and wasn't obvious on the map. I asked the ATCO to spell the reporting point, and he REFUSED!!! I mean, what is that all about?
Sorry, the various communication difficulties at CDG are both serious and unsafe, and until you guys recognise that, and do something about it, those of us who know will always be nervous in French airspace.
Finally, it has been said that if we make a mistake, we die. If ATC make a mistake, we die. An ATCO is in no danger whatsoever, but pilots have frequently been in danger around CDG. That fact alone, gives us the right to comment. We do our job to the best of our ability, but we are sometimes badly let down by those safely on the ground...
Sorry mate, I'm not very clever, if you don't use the ole smilies it's hard to tell what you mean!!
A7700 - Your written English and spelling are marginal, which makes you 200% better than some of the people in CDG ATC!!
OK, OK, sorry, couldn't resist it.
Point is, there are some things French ATC around CDG do very well indeed, for example sequencing and speed control (I have never had to hold in three years flying into CDG). However, they are sometimes difficult to understand, and sometimes issue contradictory instructions (especially on ground).
Some recent gems include being cleared to cross 26R whilst an A320 was rolling for takeoff on that runway, being cleared above FL100 on departure only to have it cancelled when we were only 200 feet below the path of another aircraft, and having to "descend urgently" (this before TCAS), being cleared to descend on the ILS when there was another aircraft directly below us on the localiser, ending up halfway down quebec taxiway and coming face to face with a 777 who had been sent the other way... and on it goes. I have filed more MORs in the three years I have been flying in French airspace than in my entire career outside French airspace.
If we don't answer, it is often because we are looking at each other in the cockpit, trying to work out what it is we have been told to do.
Last week, flying down to Chambery, we were cleared to a reporting point that neither of us had heard of, and wasn't obvious on the map. I asked the ATCO to spell the reporting point, and he REFUSED!!! I mean, what is that all about?
Sorry, the various communication difficulties at CDG are both serious and unsafe, and until you guys recognise that, and do something about it, those of us who know will always be nervous in French airspace.
Finally, it has been said that if we make a mistake, we die. If ATC make a mistake, we die. An ATCO is in no danger whatsoever, but pilots have frequently been in danger around CDG. That fact alone, gives us the right to comment. We do our job to the best of our ability, but we are sometimes badly let down by those safely on the ground...
Guest
Posts: n/a
When LHR ATC says...."are you ready for immediate takeoff?".... this means NOW, not next Tuesday. Likewise, when on the runway, "cleared for immediate takeoff" does NOT mean....start a brief, or even ammend one, it means GO. If not ready for immediate, get out of the way and make room for those that are. Wonder what part of "immediate" is not understood? Briefings should ALL be complete before entering the runway.
Guest
Posts: n/a
There is an an element of xenophobia here.
If you don't speak the local language how do you know what favours are given to nationals over strangers?
In favour of the Canaries I have to say that I feel quite secure under their control.
The only irritation I normally have is not being cleared for immediate take-off when the next arrival is miles out.
Turkey has modernised and is pleasant to visit with the new Bodrum better but still iffy and Greece is more relaxed than the frenzy of high density no radar chaos of recent years.
One corner of Europe does still worry me though and it is south east Spain which means Alicante, Almeria and Malaga.
I can't feel safe until I am somewhere north of that area.
I can't put my finger on it but I just feel that there are too many anecdotal incidents in that region.
If you don't speak the local language how do you know what favours are given to nationals over strangers?
In favour of the Canaries I have to say that I feel quite secure under their control.
The only irritation I normally have is not being cleared for immediate take-off when the next arrival is miles out.
Turkey has modernised and is pleasant to visit with the new Bodrum better but still iffy and Greece is more relaxed than the frenzy of high density no radar chaos of recent years.
One corner of Europe does still worry me though and it is south east Spain which means Alicante, Almeria and Malaga.
I can't feel safe until I am somewhere north of that area.
I can't put my finger on it but I just feel that there are too many anecdotal incidents in that region.