Turkish Airlines B777 Emergency Evacuation at LTBA
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Yes.
For the benefit of the Flight Sim experts....
The charred bodies were stacked up by each exit. There was more to it than just a simple failure to order an evacuation in good time, but the image serves as a good warning.
For the benefit of the Flight Sim experts....
The charred bodies were stacked up by each exit. There was more to it than just a simple failure to order an evacuation in good time, but the image serves as a good warning.
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A lot of very strong reactions against Unhooked for simply asking if the crew sought more information before evacuating. What's the big deal if he asked whether the crew talked to ATC or people on the ground.
A cargo fire/smoke warning on the ground is a big deal no doubt, as is evacuating a 77W on a runway.
I'm sure a hundred things went through the pilots mind- not an easy decision to make.
Keep in mind 1) there was a fire or smoke alarm.
2) ETOPS a/c was on the ground.
3) Other traffic around them.
Looking back it turned out to be a false warning and 30 people got injured during the evacuation.
Unfortunately the crew never have the luxury of hindsight. I am glad there were no serious injuries, after all as long as everyone is safe then job well done.
A cargo fire/smoke warning on the ground is a big deal no doubt, as is evacuating a 77W on a runway.
I'm sure a hundred things went through the pilots mind- not an easy decision to make.
Keep in mind 1) there was a fire or smoke alarm.
2) ETOPS a/c was on the ground.
3) Other traffic around them.
Looking back it turned out to be a false warning and 30 people got injured during the evacuation.
Unfortunately the crew never have the luxury of hindsight. I am glad there were no serious injuries, after all as long as everyone is safe then job well done.
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Capot:
If my recollections are correct on that one, based on the information you provide it will only mislead the "sim pilot" and other pilots as well.
The captain was unaware of the fire in the cabin and just kept taxiing. Also, with two engines running there was speculation that the aircraft may have been sufficently pressurized to prevent opening of the doors from the inside.
The charred bodies were stacked up by each exit. There was more to it than just a simple failure to order an evacuation in good time, but the image serves as a good warning.
The captain was unaware of the fire in the cabin and just kept taxiing. Also, with two engines running there was speculation that the aircraft may have been sufficently pressurized to prevent opening of the doors from the inside.
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Aterpster,
That's what I meant by "there's more to it...".
The image was only to illustrate what can happen; I thought that the circumstances were, for that purpose, not especially relevant. But perhaps you werre right to point out those two essential facts.
That's what I meant by "there's more to it...".
The image was only to illustrate what can happen; I thought that the circumstances were, for that purpose, not especially relevant. But perhaps you werre right to point out those two essential facts.
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Aterpster
Not quite correct - from the CVR transcript the Captain was made aware of the fire in the cabin, having instructed the crew to fight the fire with extinguishers. His final words shortly before landing were:
18:35:57 CAM-1 Tell them, tell them to not evacuate
Aviation Safety Network > Accident investigation > CVR / FDR > Transcripts > Saudia Flight 163 - 19 AUG 1980
The captain was unaware of the fire in the cabin and just kept taxiing. Also, with two engines running there was speculation that the aircraft may have been sufficently pressurized to prevent opening of the doors from the inside.
4th Dec 2010 17:44
4th Dec 2010 17:44
18:35:57 CAM-1 Tell them, tell them to not evacuate
Aviation Safety Network > Accident investigation > CVR / FDR > Transcripts > Saudia Flight 163 - 19 AUG 1980
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I would place a cabin fire right up there in my top ten terrors alongside EDcomp etc.
You can sim for it till the cows come home but you will never know one's reaction in a real situation until it presents itself.
Making a command decision in these circumstances falls to the skipper and the consequences thereafter are his to bear.
IMO on this occasion the decision was prudent and correct.
You can sim for it till the cows come home but you will never know one's reaction in a real situation until it presents itself.
Making a command decision in these circumstances falls to the skipper and the consequences thereafter are his to bear.
IMO on this occasion the decision was prudent and correct.
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I can live with injured passengers due to a cargo fire warning triggered evacuation, but I'm cant even imagine the guilt I would feel if my pax get killed because I didn't evacuate after a cargo fire warning.
To me the choice is easy.
To me the choice is easy.
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Can't agree more than with the previous reply by Mana etc!!! Much rather live with the thought I caused a few broken legs than a heap of charred bodies. Follow the Boeing checklist and FCTM.
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There is also another problem with a cargo fire indication - it is not really a fire indication, it is a smoke indication. Opposed to an engine fire, that actually meassures heat by changing resistance in the fire loops, there are smoke detectors at work in the cargo compartment.
After recieving the warning, sitting on a RWY about to take off, I would not heitate the slightest bit in firing the extinguishers. But, I have been taught, the high concentration of halon in the cargobay will continue to give you the "fire warning" by triggering the smoke detectors down there.
On the 340, if I remember correctly, one bottle would fire immediatly and release all of its content in a matter of seconds, whereas the second one would slowly keep feeding more halon into the hold over the next 60 minutes (I forgot the real time it would take, but something like that).
That leaves you no way to judge if that fire is really out or not for quite some time, so if no heat detecting equipment is present immediatly, there is no other way but to evacuate the ship at once.
Nic
After recieving the warning, sitting on a RWY about to take off, I would not heitate the slightest bit in firing the extinguishers. But, I have been taught, the high concentration of halon in the cargobay will continue to give you the "fire warning" by triggering the smoke detectors down there.
On the 340, if I remember correctly, one bottle would fire immediatly and release all of its content in a matter of seconds, whereas the second one would slowly keep feeding more halon into the hold over the next 60 minutes (I forgot the real time it would take, but something like that).
That leaves you no way to judge if that fire is really out or not for quite some time, so if no heat detecting equipment is present immediatly, there is no other way but to evacuate the ship at once.
Nic
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DLamination: I understood part of the delay in evacuating the 380 was the fact that #1 was still running and precautions had to be put in place to avoid pax mincing themselves through a Trent.
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So lets see now, no smoke, no fire, 30 minor injuries and pax running wildly around the airfield: and how many posters said that Unhooked was a ms pilot for hoping that they confirmed there was a fire before evacuating.
Professionals??? - hilarious
Professionals??? - hilarious
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Unhooked. Thank you for your insulting PM.
I am of the opinion that the CREW are the SOLE ARBITERS as to whether or not THEY WILL evacuate their aircraft. I am there to separate traffic ,offer assistance and instigate the dispatch of the emergency services. If there is plainly something wrong(smoke emanating etc) of course I will put my spoke in. The fact remains that if the crew decide to go(as it appears in this instance) THAT IS THEIR DECISION.
I will hit the red button and let the RFFS get on with it.
This "smart arse" controller of 32 years (your profile says **** all about you) understands COMPLETELY the dynamics in incidents such as this.
THE guys in the front MAKE THE DECISIONS.If they prefer to involve me in their decision well and good. I don't neccessarily expect it.
I am of the opinion that the CREW are the SOLE ARBITERS as to whether or not THEY WILL evacuate their aircraft. I am there to separate traffic ,offer assistance and instigate the dispatch of the emergency services. If there is plainly something wrong(smoke emanating etc) of course I will put my spoke in. The fact remains that if the crew decide to go(as it appears in this instance) THAT IS THEIR DECISION.
I will hit the red button and let the RFFS get on with it.
This "smart arse" controller of 32 years (your profile says **** all about you) understands COMPLETELY the dynamics in incidents such as this.
THE guys in the front MAKE THE DECISIONS.If they prefer to involve me in their decision well and good. I don't neccessarily expect it.
eastern wiseguy-
Yes, crew are the final arbiters and decision makers- armed with all available information and in line with rules, regulations and manuals.
Are you aware that there is a Boeing Bulliten specifically dealing with Cargo Fire indications, laying down guidelines to confirm a fire by a second source before initiating an evacuation?
An indication in the air as per the Saudia L1011 is, of course, a land ASAP situation, and they had plent of indication that it was a real fire by the time they landed.
Yes, crew are the final arbiters and decision makers- armed with all available information and in line with rules, regulations and manuals.
Are you aware that there is a Boeing Bulliten specifically dealing with Cargo Fire indications, laying down guidelines to confirm a fire by a second source before initiating an evacuation?
An indication in the air as per the Saudia L1011 is, of course, a land ASAP situation, and they had plent of indication that it was a real fire by the time they landed.
Tightcircuit:
...at a cabin altitude of 25000 ft, yes. not Sea Level.
You have to bear in mind that an etops a/c should be capable of containing a cargo hold fire for 180 minutes.
ew,
Sorry, didn't mean to get in the middle of your spat with Unhooked. He was being unfairly criticized by others for even suggesting the crew may have been a bit quick on the draw- reading your posts I don't think you were one of them.
sc,
Yes it's a CO Bulletin, but they are issued with consultation from Boeing, often on Boeing's recommendation- I'd be surprised if most B777 operators don't have the same Bulletin (or at least similar) as anomalous fire warnings are a problem with the aircraft, and it most certainly NOT Boeing philosophy to make a major action based on one indication, with the exception of Engine and APU Fire warnings (Note the Boeing Bulletin, issued for ALL types on unnecessary engine shutdowns.).
I'm not condemning the crew,they made a decision. but talking about other's incidents is an opportunity to learn- 30 minor injuries from a situation where there was no actual danger is a result that bears analysis and education.
Should we just ignore this and resolve to do the same ourselves, or see if we can't think up a better solution?
Sorry, didn't mean to get in the middle of your spat with Unhooked. He was being unfairly criticized by others for even suggesting the crew may have been a bit quick on the draw- reading your posts I don't think you were one of them.
sc,
Yes it's a CO Bulletin, but they are issued with consultation from Boeing, often on Boeing's recommendation- I'd be surprised if most B777 operators don't have the same Bulletin (or at least similar) as anomalous fire warnings are a problem with the aircraft, and it most certainly NOT Boeing philosophy to make a major action based on one indication, with the exception of Engine and APU Fire warnings (Note the Boeing Bulletin, issued for ALL types on unnecessary engine shutdowns.).
I'm not condemning the crew,they made a decision. but talking about other's incidents is an opportunity to learn- 30 minor injuries from a situation where there was no actual danger is a result that bears analysis and education.
Should we just ignore this and resolve to do the same ourselves, or see if we can't think up a better solution?
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ManaAdaSystem
Wrong, you clearly don't know what you are talking about.
You would never evacuate because of a cargo hold fire without receiving confirmation by using all available resources. With a cargo fire you will receive that confirmation from the cabin crew before you can say "Jack Sparrow"
Evacuating passengers from a large jet or even a small one for that matter has many inherent dangers and the decision should not be taken lightly.
So your 'rather be safe than sorry' comment is fundamentally flawed.
Had the Turkish pilots received better training in this regard they wouldn't be looking so stupid right now. I certainly wouldn't like to face my chief pilot for cold tea on a Monday had it been me.
If you have a cargo fire warning and do an evacuation, nobody can touch you. If you don't, and people get killed, I'd say you better burn up together with your pax.
You would never evacuate because of a cargo hold fire without receiving confirmation by using all available resources. With a cargo fire you will receive that confirmation from the cabin crew before you can say "Jack Sparrow"
Evacuating passengers from a large jet or even a small one for that matter has many inherent dangers and the decision should not be taken lightly.
So your 'rather be safe than sorry' comment is fundamentally flawed.
Had the Turkish pilots received better training in this regard they wouldn't be looking so stupid right now. I certainly wouldn't like to face my chief pilot for cold tea on a Monday had it been me.
