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Finnair A340 attempts takeoff from taxiway

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Finnair A340 attempts takeoff from taxiway

Old 2nd Dec 2010, 10:10
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Air traffic control intervened to halt the take-off and the aircraft taxied back to the correct departure point, from where it left without further incident, and arrived in Helsinki about 55min behind schedule.
Hong Kong controller halts Finnair A340 taxiway take-off

I am faintly surprised they weren't required to return to the terminal for investigation (i.e. breath testing) etc. after an incident such as this.
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Old 2nd Dec 2010, 11:52
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Here's a hint from a 'skygod':

"Don't assume . . . check".

Many people have thought that with the advent of all glass cockpits, the level of monitoring has been affected. Humans are monitoring computers and not the other way around - potentially flawed as a concept.

I was also not aware that I said I never made a mistake, I stopped plenty and mine were never of this magnitude, and usually self-declared. Am I proud of that - damn right.

I think in those days we had more appreciation of size, inertia and plain old responsibility tempered with respect for hardware and liveware.

I maintain, that for this to happen there is NO excuse (notice I didn't say 'reasons'), the fare-paying public (or anyone else come to that) have a right to expect high (higher than normal) levels of professionalism in flightcrew.

OKAY guys - off you go again, I've got broad shoulders and spent quite a few years as a Flight Safety Officer and privy to the results of quite a few inquiries. Just call me cynical (perhaps one of the nicer things you're thinking). I can cope - the truth may even out.
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Old 2nd Dec 2010, 11:58
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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3 letters... GPS

As others have mentioned this could and should be solved by applying proven and cheap technology.
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Old 2nd Dec 2010, 13:01
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It's unlikely that this crew would have elected to take-off from an intersection so whatever the technology present in the cockpit is it too much to ask that they look for the runway designators as they line up ?
Let's not abandon the basics.
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Old 2nd Dec 2010, 13:22
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Question: is "map reading" as a skill dying off? If you have the airport diagram on your kneeboard/display, and orient yourself to the map and "drive" to the map position, you'll tend to arrive at your destination. Granted, this can be a real challenge at night when at an unfamiliar field, or a runway one hasn't been to previously. (Is calling for progressive taxi seen as a sign of weakness?)

I ask this due to something I saw during two different eras in flying instruction: pre GPS and post GPS, and in the era of the digital watch.

From discussing with instrument flight students who were having trouble entering and eaving holding patterns, or doing proper course reversals during procedure turn approaches, and teardrop approaches, I found that using the dial of a watch as a metaphor for compass card useful during the 80's in getting the light to come on, not so much after 2000. Simple map reading, or map to ground to situation conversion seemed to have degraded during the same period.

Looking at this flight crew: how often can the flight training branch in their airline assess their map to ground to situation skills or shortcomings? How would you know how well someone can visualize their position and how to get from A to B via the airport map/diagram?

In the GPS generation, I don't think it can be taken for granted.

I discovered this when I found out how differently my son and daughter understood directions, and which of them could better apply map to ground to situation. She did. This caused me to spend quite a bit more time with my son on maps and directions as he learned to drive.

It seems to be a learned skill, not an innate one.

Perhaps the opportunity to learn it is evaporating in the current day and age of tech, and the skill cannot be taken for granted, even among pilots.

Like reading a watch with a round face and 12 numbers.
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Old 2nd Dec 2010, 13:25
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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3 letters... GPS. ..... this could and should be solved by applying proven and cheap technology.
Or this. Why rely on aircraft having GPS when you can modify the airfield - and get far more info to pilots.
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Old 2nd Dec 2010, 13:28
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AGNES

While the case is being investigated, new instruction has been issued that no take off clearance can be issued until we "see" the aircraft is physically on the subject RWY.
Wasn't there already an instruction to that effect after the previous 3 incidents? Understand the guy was cleared to lineup and go contrary to that instruction.

BTW, what was the Tower North controller exactly doing at the time? Was it him/her that spotted it or someone else??

Things are not always so clear cut as they seem.
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Old 2nd Dec 2010, 13:37
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Try again Grimmrad

The JOURNAL of the AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION (JAMA) Vol 284, No 4, July 26th 2000 article written by Dr Barbara Starfield, MD, MPH, of the Johns Hopkins School of Hygiene and Public Health, shows that medical errors may be the third leading cause of death in the United States.

The report apparently shows there are 2,000 deaths/year from unnecessary surgery; 7000 deaths/year from medication errors in hospitals; 20,000 deaths/year from other errors in hospitals; 80,000 deaths/year from infections in hospitals; 106,000 deaths/year from non-error, adverse effects of medications - these total up to 225,000 deaths per year in the US from iatrogenic causes which ranks these deaths as the # 3 killer. Iatrogenic is a term used when a patient dies as a direct result of treatments by a physician.
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Old 2nd Dec 2010, 13:44
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Independent of profession - there's folks who take their job with pride and prefer to check than to believe. And there's the others. Sometimes just working to feed the family. Not because they like what they're doing, but because they have to do something.

I therefore assume it's more a case of dedication to the job than actually the job itself.

Not sure how much training and other soft factors play a role to dedication. But if there's no dedication then there's certainly no culture, let alone safety culture, present.

Valid for all levels of employees (and employers). Valid for all professions - pilots and doctors, cleaners and CEO's.
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Old 2nd Dec 2010, 13:54
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there's folks who take their job with pride and prefer to check than to believe. And there's the others. Sometimes just working to feed the family. Not because they like what they're doing, but because they have to do something.

...

Not sure how much training and other soft factors play a role to dedication. But if there's no dedication then there's certainly no culture, let alone safety culture, present.
I think you just precisely stated why the Hong Kong CAD Runway controller DIDN"T spot it.
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Old 2nd Dec 2010, 14:43
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Sometimes (most times) reading PPRUNE forums are enlightening and thought provoking.

Other times reading through posts is like observing a tenis match style debate of oneupmanship, claim -v- counterclaim, and the ineviatble camps of :-
' I wouldn't have done that'
'they shouldn't have done that' -v-
'you may have done that'
'we all could end up doing that'
that add's nothing of substance to the debate -

it doesn't change the fact 'it happened' and sadly ' will most likely happen again'.
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Old 2nd Dec 2010, 14:59
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Guys are we seriously comparing aviation to complex medical operations such as surgery? I know we as pilots think a lot of ourselves but the average flight does not nearly require the same amount of skill and likewise doesn't bring with it the same probable dangers and complications as would say open heart surgery.

With regards to the A340 incident. The guys in front screwed up. It happens all the time, everybody does it and it is a risk inherent to any operation performed by a human.

Yesterday I performed a realignment on the IRS systems in my aircraft because the FMC kept complaining I had a IRS/nav position disagree error. Took me 10 minutes to figure out I accidentally entered the destination airport into the system as being the departure airport. 1200nm difference there...

Mistakes will happen regardless of how many safety procedures you put in force.
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Old 2nd Dec 2010, 15:02
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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stilton, antman
please read my second post again. I quote myself here: "No intention to say that we are perfect, you are not..." Just saying if we screw up there is one (or max 2) dead people at onece, if you, well,...

slast:
I am aware of that book and the proposed content
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Old 2nd Dec 2010, 15:24
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Grimrad:

Don't bother, your post made perfect sense, but what you're up against in professional (and I mean 'paid') aviation are supreme egos, a lot of very precious people and levels of arrogance that need to be seen to be believed. Not all by any means, just some. Quite often, their peers don't seem overly surprised by who is involved.

It's probably not too different from your peer group after all, because it's populated by humans.

I'll doubtless be harangued for that too, but I really don't care. I think after 40 years in aviation, that I'm entitled to my opinion. This is a place where we're allowed to do that . . .

With the benefit of a little maturity I've found that I don't have the inclination to be particularly politically correct these days, so can afford to call it as I see it, based on my own experience and observations.

I still think there's no excuse (probably just the classic error chain of one flavour or another).

Last edited by Dengue_Dude; 2nd Dec 2010 at 17:16. Reason: Nearly made a mistake . . .
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Old 2nd Dec 2010, 15:54
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grimmrad,
as a matter of curiosity how well do you think that book is generally received in the medical profession?
Steve
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Old 2nd Dec 2010, 16:33
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For what it's worth, and I'm not a doctor, I do know that Gawande is a highly regarded MD himself, quite well-known, and I should think that his book--and his numerous other medical writings and books over the years--are pretty well-regarded by thinking docs.
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Old 2nd Dec 2010, 18:54
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As far as I remember there was even a NYT article about it and at least in certain areas like NICU, ICU there are more and more adopting that approach. Everybody has his own little checklist what to look for in his head as well.
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Old 2nd Dec 2010, 19:06
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Gawande is a frequent contributor to The New Yorker magazine.
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Old 2nd Dec 2010, 22:38
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Why is it that flying airplanes is a PROFESSION whereas doctors PRACTICE their profession? That might explains some of the figures posted above.
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Old 2nd Dec 2010, 23:17
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Not sure I understand. Do pilots perhaps profess their profession? Commit their profession?? Undertake their profession???
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