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Brussels Airlines - 6 incidents in 3 weeks (RJ1H flaps)

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Brussels Airlines - 6 incidents in 3 weeks (RJ1H flaps)

Old 23rd Nov 2010, 07:50
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Brussels Airlines - 6 incidents in 3 weeks (RJ1H flaps)

I was considering posting after 5, but didn't want to sound alarmist - but having a 6th the next day?! With passengers?!

3/Nov - OO-DWI
Incident: Brussels Airlines RJ1H at Vienna on Nov 3rd 2010, flaps problem

16/Nov - OO-DWD
Incident: Brussels Airlines RJ1H at Gothenburg on Nov 16th 2010, flaps problem

18/Nov - OO-DWD
Incident: Brussels Airlines RJ1H at Bologna on Nov 18th 2010, flaps problem

19/Nov - OO-DWI
Incident: Brussels Airlines RJ1H at Brussels on Nov 19th 2010, flaps problem

21/Nov - OO-DWI
Incident: Brussels Airlines RJ1H at Vilnius on Nov 21st 2010, flaps problem

22/Nov - OO-DWD
Incident: Brussels Airlines RJ1H at Budapest on Nov 22nd 2010, flaps failure
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Old 23rd Nov 2010, 08:12
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De Standaard Online - Brussels Airlines houdt twee Avro-toestellen aan de grond

Article in a Belgian newspaper stating that Brusseks Airlines has grounded 2 Avrojets. for further investigation.
I guess that will be the same two.
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Old 23rd Nov 2010, 11:09
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resulting in a safe landing at a higher than normal speed.
Flap lockouts are a well known feature of 146/RJ operations, the system design is just prone to them. Certainly there is a trend developing there and it needs to be looked at, my guess is that examination of maintenance procedures will solve it, but its not exactly a big deal. Not like the SAS Dash undercarriage business, and that hurt precisely no-one except the accountants.
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Old 23rd Nov 2010, 11:48
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Quote: I was considering posting after 5, but didn't want to sound alarmist
Dymonaz what is your point? You are either a jorno phishing or do not really understand flying. A flapless landing is only a big deal if the runway is short. The airline obviously has a tech problem on these 2 aircraft which is finally going to be sorted after grounding them, no big deal, it happens every hour of the day somehere in the world.
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Old 23rd Nov 2010, 12:39
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You are either a jorno phishing or do not really understand flying.
No, I'm not a journo, but I'm not a pilot either - that's why I hesitated about posting - even though I do spend [too much] time here reading.

Is there cause to be worried? I don't know. Should they have grounded the aircraft earlier? I don't know. Is there a need to discuss this? As far as I understand, your opinion is "no". Thank you, it is noted and appreciated. If it makes anyone feel any better - I do not plan to participate in the discussion, nor post any of my own opinions, simply because I'm not qualified to do so - but creating a topic for this particular fact - I feel it had to be done.

</PersonalAttacksAndFlameBait>

6 very similar "occurencies" which are categorized as "incidents" did happen in 3 weeks. They didn't happen for others. That's a fact - not even a rumour.

no big deal, it happens every hour of the day somehere in the world.
You mean flapless landings (when they shouldn't be flapless) happen every hour? Then how come Brussels Airlines are singled out in the incident list?
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Old 23rd Nov 2010, 12:54
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it happens every hour of the day somehere in the world.
If you mean an airliner performing a flapless landing, would you be kind enough to provide a definitive reference for that?
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Old 23rd Nov 2010, 13:26
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my guess is that examination of maintenance procedures will solve it
my guess as well, shortening the lubrication interval did the trick when the 737-300 series had the same problem; although that was at the beginning of its lifecycle, not at its end as is the case with the RJ
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Old 23rd Nov 2010, 14:37
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The BAe146/Avro RJ aircraft has always had a bit of a thing with flap problems. I have had to do a couple of flapless landings myself. As someone has already said, it is absolutely no big deal unless the runway is too short. If it is, then you need to divert to an airfield with a longer runway.

The cause is usually the flap computer or a lack of grease in the runners.
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Old 23rd Nov 2010, 14:51
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Littleboy 262
I find it really amazing to be told to "pull my head in" by someone of such obvious vaste experience in aviation matters. Is is some sort of african equivalent to "wind my neck in"? because I am rolling about laughing at the moment. Read JW 411's post. This problem is well know to operators of the 146 and I do not think any of them would be at all woried about one side coming out as a result of a few flap failures. You guys should really go and find something real to be concerned about as opposed to revealing your ignorance on these matters. How about aviation safety in Africa, that should be good for starters.
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Old 23rd Nov 2010, 15:08
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One of my many roles in the industry was as an aircraft inspector at Hatfield. U/C, hydraulics and flaps were a daily task and the flap system was never brilliant at new build stage. I gaurentee, everyone aboard would be awake on final approach!
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Old 23rd Nov 2010, 17:00
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Flapless in the 146/RJ is indeed no big deal. In my eight years on type, I had two or three or four (it was such a non-event that I canít remember just how many).

But what doesnít impress me is the laissez-fair attitude of the successive crews who didnít insist on a proper investigation. One of ours had a (parallel) short history of pressurisation failures. When it happened to me, I decided that enough was enough Ė and so did my fleet manager. So it was taken out of service and FIXED PROPERLY.

Jack
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Old 23rd Nov 2010, 17:26
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Quote "Hawker, Look at the stats. Most of the "market" for this forum is not even registered.

Currently Active Users
512 (169 members & 343 guests)"

That's not at all the topic here, but personally I usually don't log in, so I might appear as guest, and as such I don't mean to be rude to my hosts but there may be more people than you think who are in this case.
Just to add a bit of moderation to the idea behind what you say. But again not the matter here.
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Old 23rd Nov 2010, 18:12
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Looks to me like someone jumped out of bed the wrong side...the guy doesn't deserve to be shouted down so stridently.As a non-pilot "aviation professional" I may have asked a similar qu.

I see Dymonaz is in Dublin...are your savings tied up in the Irish bailout fund Hawker? I might have had a little shout at him too if that were the case
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Old 23rd Nov 2010, 18:49
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I'm surprised SN Brussels had a problem with their RJs, they have the most reliable, fault free RJs in the world. Having worked at a European outstation with Brussels RJs as a nightstopping aircraft for the past 7 months, no defect ever went in the tech log when I was on shift. I did see one Captain writing something in the tech log, funnily enough it was a flap fault, but when I started to look into doing a flap reset he stopped me saying "..no action is required because I wrote 'for info' at the start". Yeah right....
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Old 23rd Nov 2010, 18:58
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Don't know what happened to my previous post. But I'll take the bait and reply to you hawker.


First of all. This is a public forum. It is a rumour network. It is set up not just for pilots, but for engineers, cabin crew, plane spotters, military and ATC as well. I have a few other choice words that I could use here to describe where your head is, but I guess thats the reason as to why my original post was deleted.


Obviously since you have a lot of years on me, Im sure that your logbook will have a few more hours than mine, but theres no need to talk down on my experience.
No doubt you've shot a few more ILS approaches onto many long runways around the world. But I've sure as hell had some experiences here that I doubt you have ever, or will ever, experience in your lifetime. Where I am, flaps are a pretty important piece of equipment. Yes, a lot of runways you don't need them, and if you understand your plane and what is going to happen without them, then it wont be a big deal.


But tell me. If you look there has been a 747 overrun into seattle. Before everyone starts jumping up and down like crazed babboons, I realise different aircraft, different place, different circumstances than what we are talking about here and is in no way related to that incident.


Thats a pretty large runway there. Crap conditions, icey and all the rest of it. Now it stopped in the clearway after the &quot;runway&quot; finished. Tell me how that would have worked out if the flaps had failed to deploy? Im pretty sure they wouldn't have expected to run out of runway even with if they had failed flaps.


Scenario 2. Im unfamiliar with that aircraft, so do not know if there are failsafes with how the flaps deploy, or what settings they use on take-off. So the pilots are low to the ground just after take off, through 300ft, captian calls for flaps to be retracted. One goes up. One stays down. Next moment we have assymetric flaps and the plane is wanting to roll onto its back.


Now that is just me playing the doom bringer in how something like this COULD play out. Chances are that it will never happen, but, and there is always that but, it could happen.


This is meant to be Europe. High safety standards. If you have a system, you expect it to work most of the time. Not become a common incident that you just shrug off. Otherwise, what is the point in even having it on the aircraft?



Oh and by the way, I'm not from Africa. Im just working here. And I find the safety standards of most of the countries around the one that Im working in, appaling. Specially to the north. But thats totally a different matter and not one that needs to be discussed here.

Last edited by lilflyboy262; 24th Nov 2010 at 08:10.
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Old 23rd Nov 2010, 19:01
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And apologies for my above post. I am trying to put spaces between paragraphs and it isn't letting me... Unless it is something to do with the display at my end, then I apologise for this useless post.
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Old 23rd Nov 2010, 19:10
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I have found that to get proper paragraph spacing you might need to hit Return twice. The "Preview" mode will enable you to see what you are about to post and give the chance to make corrections.

Jack
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Old 23rd Nov 2010, 20:41
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Don't know what happened to my previous post.
hawker750's original post has disappeared - moderated, I guess - and so have all the immediate replies - at least three, including mine.

Last edited by EuroPPL; 24th Nov 2010 at 06:45.
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Old 24th Nov 2010, 00:40
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I'd be greatly surprised if an AVRO, with take-off flaps selected, would go into a irreversible roll ending up-side down if it had asymmetrical flaps occurence during climb-out.

Lolflyboy, I'm not sure what outfit you fly for in Africa, but flap retraction through 300ft AGL is to my knowledge completely unseen with regards to medium passenger jet aircraft.

Regardless, performance on an AVRO is not an issue when we're talking landing distance. The aircraft is a brick with 4 engines strapped to it. Even coming in at clean speed.
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Old 24th Nov 2010, 08:18
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Well that edit seemed to make it work properly

like I said D105, Im unfamiliar with the settings on take off for this type, but even 10 degrees would make a hell of a difference in a assymetric situation! Had one before and it scared the bejebus out of me.
Im still with the "heavy" lighties so 300ft is usually pleanty, but I would have thought the first stage of flap would be retracted pretty early?

Its not the floating on landing thats going to kill you, thats something that is easy to anticipate, its the higher ground speed and longer ground roll that can be a little harder to judge, specially in contiminated runway situations.

All you need to do is look through previous accidents and you will see the "Swiss cheese" model to a majority of them. A simple fix to a common problem fills in one of these holes and can stop the chain of events.
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