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TSA - Pilots to be exempt from scanners & pat downs.

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TSA - Pilots to be exempt from scanners & pat downs.

Old 21st Nov 2010, 17:40
  #41 (permalink)  
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Profiling allows the security service to target certain "groups" shall we say, rather than concentrate on other "groups", which everyone knows will be a complete and utter waste of time.

By "groups" I am not referring to the origin of a passport here. I am referring to RACE and Religion. Sorry but it had to come. Common sense dictates you target the most likely "group" judging from past recent history.
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Old 21st Nov 2010, 17:58
  #42 (permalink)  
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Normally I wouldn't bother posting here but I have finally given in to the ignoranti on here who spout about PC and family held hostage in order to pass on a "proxy" bomb.

For heavens sake, use your minute brains to get a grip and try to understand the problem from a logical point of view. First off, "profiling" isn't racist. Stating that it is, is stupidity of the first order and that makes me prejudiced against fools who open their mouths and remove all doubt about their intelligence.

Perhaps if we used the whole title of "multi-layered psychological profiling" rather than just "profiling" which causes the PC brigade to assume that a profiler only goes looking for people of a certain skin colour or dress. Don't be so pathetically stupid! It's all about demeanour and intent. Intent to cause harm. Intent to meet ones maker and the vestal virgins or whatever.

There are likely to be very, very few chances of someone committed to take his or her own life together with those of innocent bystanders who does not exhibit some (many in fact) signs of the mental state he or she is in. A well trained, multi-layered profiling system would have that person isolated long before they even got into any queue on the ground, never mind in the confines of an aircraft.

And now to the second issue of a crew member being coerced into passing something to A N Other once airside. Have you thought out how difficult it would be to co-ordinate something like that. Look up "Occams Razor" and figure out for yourself whether it is likely to succeed. Some ignorantii watching too many Hollywood movies and actually believing that everything they watch is feasible and possible!

Together with some simple, multi-layered psychological profiling, you're assuming that the victim is not going to exhibit some signs that all is not well. Besides, what is there to stop one of the armed police we watch passing through the system unchecked, hasn't had his family held hostage? Oooh... we didn't think of that. Duh!

Anyway, if only 10% or 20% of people are actually scanned by the backscatter X-Ray machines, how is that security? Are the PC and "proxy" brigades going to assume that by making flight crew go through the ridiculous option of Scan or invasive pat-down is somehow enhancing security? Most likely, but they should all sod off to a pax forum where they can gnaw their nails with anxiousness about the next big terrorist threat. This post is about pilots and not the pax.

We are part of the solution, not the problem. At least the TSA are about to do something positive, finally! Here in the UK we still have to deal with the faceless idiots in the DfT who set rules that are left to individual airports to interpret and implement. They still work to the assumption that in a worst case scenario a pilot is going to have his or her family held hostage in order to pass "something" to someone else airside.

There is absolutely no thought going into "intent" and only on the confiscation of liquids and nail clippers. Of course, the drones in the DfT will tell you that because of their methods, there have been no incidents. Of course, using their logic, I could also state categorically that because I eat a bowl of corn flakes every morning I will never be trampled by a rogue elephant when walking down Kensington High Street.

It is time for our own pilot associations here in the UK to lobby our own parliamentarians to tell the DfT to get out of their secret world of security theatre and get realistic about who is part of the solution. It was stated only a few years ago that here in Europe and the USA we could never have the type of multi-layered profiling system that the Israelis have employed for such a long time because it would be prohibitively expensive. Well, how much do you think it has cost us for the current 'security theatre'? Aside from the fact that it is now a self sustaining industry which stands to lose a lot of money if this were ever to be revealed as the farce it really is. Too many Mandarins would have a lot of explaining with no real possibility of giving a real reason.

So, lets just keep the ignoranti off this thread. You know who I mean. Those that try to interpret this an issue for all pax rather than just the flight crew. Also, the other ignoranti, you know, the ones who fail miserably to understand what multi-layered psychological profiling is all about and instead immediately jump on the PC bandwagon and assume (makes an Ass out of You and Me) that it just involves singling out people on a racial basis.

And finally, lets keep the ignoranti who have watched too much Hollywood movies and have a singular inability to comprehend what Occams Razor is about and why it would be an extremely unlikely event. So unlikely that our own armed police are not suspected of being sleepers or victims of their family being held hostage. So, why should we be treated as suspects?
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Old 21st Nov 2010, 19:09
  #43 (permalink)  
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Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Nobody.

P.S. It's not a good point though.
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Old 21st Nov 2010, 21:10
  #44 (permalink)  
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Why would anyone bother to try to coerce a crewmember? How many rampers, fuelers, cleaners, etc have daily access to the "secure" areas with NO screening?
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Old 21st Nov 2010, 22:08
  #45 (permalink)  
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SLF here. This BS is just maddening. The scanners are sold by, drumroll please, M. Chertoff, recently of the DHS. This may be his retirement program. Now, the TSA/DHS is advertising in cross gender websites for screeners, promising that you can grope all the packages you want, and maybe even recruit some more folks to your way of thinking. Meanwhile, the idea of profiling, is just not PC enough and we can't let grandma or little debbie or kindergarten age or even some wayward pilot avoid the attentions of the previous fast food folks. When the beep goes off of the WTMD, some of the screeners jump to attention, thinking the french fries are done.

Enough is enough. You pilots and air crew in total are doing a wonderful job and putting up with way more than most folks would. The ultimate solution to this crap is boycotting the airlines. Sorry folks, I know this may affect you, but they (airline cos), have the congressional ear, and maybe the respective congress still remembers that the local populace is enraged still after the last election.
Sorry for the long rant. but the Bill of Rights is still sacred.
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Old 22nd Nov 2010, 08:06
  #46 (permalink)  
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But isn't that exactly the point. They should also be screened. If you want to secure the airside area doesn't it make sense that everyone with access be screened - the police, security officials, cleaners, flight crew etc. Otherwise its just a joke. Its nothing to do with trust. Its to prevent them from being forced to bring banned items airside for others to use.
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Old 22nd Nov 2010, 10:37
  #47 (permalink)  
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Jstflyin wrote:
My personal input towards a solution would be more intelligence and more common sense...not only profiliing or denunciaiton. If we take the amount of money spent on backskatter x-ray machines and use it to go "shopping" for information at al kaida bazar I bet we'll see that everybody and their plans have a certain price.

One of the most intelligent comments thus far.
Intelligence is the key to this issue of security as it has proven success in past and present conflicts.
One has to know one's enemy and screening atpl holders or indeed pax without understanding the mindset of fanatics is futile ...imo of course
I just fly the thing.
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Old 22nd Nov 2010, 11:50
  #48 (permalink)  
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Some very good and salient points on this thread so far.

I know plenty of ways to get "illicit" goods airside without resorting to holding a family hostage!

I'll outline one, which is obvious enough that it isn't a security risk.

Get your mate who is airside, and has been through security, throw whatever you want over the airfield fence, and then get him to pick it up!

This fight is not one that can be won by frontline security, you can have as many scanners as you like, but you can never defeat it that way. There will always be a weak link in the chain.

The way to fight it best is intelligence driven, with profiling as a back up. I'm sure MI5 and 6 stop an awful lot of stuff before it even comes to fruition. I know where I spend my daily business that MI5 keep a quiet eye on things. That is the way forward.
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Old 22nd Nov 2010, 13:19
  #49 (permalink)  
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SLF here... you know... one of the poor bastids that has to put up with this stuff... and without me... and countless minions like me... you folks wouldn't get to fly the iron you do. </rant off>

What I don't get is this: If pilots can clear with ID, why not me? I fly regularly... and usually the same routes. Why can't I undergo 'inspection' and have my name in a computer as pre-approved? Why do I have to have a TSA individual, who clearly fits in the left side of the bell curve, 'assess' me for terrorist potential?

What are these TSA jackasses trying to accomplish anyway? It can't be security. They refuse to profile. They hardly touch cargo. They hardly touch luggage. Without going into details I know I could walk into any airport naked, board the plane naked, and still be a threat.

Why is it that security conscious countries like Singapore don't resort to this garbage, while the US TSA degrades the flying experience yet again?

National Opt-Out Day
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Old 22nd Nov 2010, 15:12
  #50 (permalink)  
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What I don't get is this: If pilots can clear with ID, why not me? I fly regularly... and usually the same routes. Why can't I undergo 'inspection' and have my name in a computer as pre-approved? Why do I have to have a TSA individual, who clearly fits in the left side of the bell curve, 'assess' me for terrorist potential?

Pretty simple; We Fly the Aircraft

We could come to work naked and nothing changes.

A concept that the out of control - “Security Machine,” - is too stupid (and have no intention) to figure out.

Airline Management gets perverse pleasure out of seeing the Pilots put through this indignity.

We (Pilots) don’t need nail clippers, to take over the Aircraft

I certainly have empathy for the Frequent Flyer; it would be nice to see more of a “Trusted Traveler” system.

But sorry, you’re not in the same “trust” category as the Pilots.
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Old 22nd Nov 2010, 15:33
  #51 (permalink)  
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If terrorism is the deliberate use of violence, or threat of its use, against innocent people, with the aim of intimidating them, or other people, into a course of action they would otherwise not take; then they are succeeding brilliantly.
At the same time, for the price of some explosives in a shoe, underpants, and a couple of toner cartridges, they are making us waste billions of dollars for little or no real protection. And this security apparatus just continues to grow.
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Old 22nd Nov 2010, 18:43
  #52 (permalink)  
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If the method is known -- and it's now very, very widely known by anyone who might want to get past it -- then it's essentially useless; any actual terrorists will practice until they have a high chance of getting through any questions thrown at them.
They can't. Each question requires an answer with specific details, and the number of details required to successfully field any question increases exponentially with the number of questions. Nobody, no matter how much training he has, can memorize enough detail in advance to consistently and plausibly answer every question he will be asked when interrogated in this way. That's why it works. It works even when the bad guys know the method themselves in detail.

This screening method has been used in some parts of the world for years in aviation, and has been very widely used by law enforcement and military interrogators for a much longer time. Its drawbacks are that it requires a skilled practitioner and time, but it works extremely well.

Screening methods that concentrate on looking for things,, instead of looking at people, are ridiculously inadequate in comparison.

In addition, psychopaths are extremely good liars to begin with and probably make up a far larger proportion of the potential recruits for a terrorist group than they do in the general population.
Psychopaths are typically far too interested in themselves to care about working for a terrorist group. It is true that they can lie without visible signs of stress in many cases, but they will still betray themselves in a deep interrogation, just like anyone else who is trying to lie.
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Old 25th Nov 2010, 14:12
  #53 (permalink)  
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Anything that gets the phrase "touch my junk" into a Bloomberg article has to be a good thing!

Man Up When It?s Time for Your Junk Pat-Down: Margaret Carlson - Bloomberg.com
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Old 25th Nov 2010, 15:26
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Wink Nothing will change

We just have to listen:

"It's about the profit of the 'security'-mafia, stupid"

Nothing else. And so it will never change. Way too much money can be made here. Legally. The perfect cash cow. And they are just about to have another one in the barn: The "Check the cargo"-cow.

Fantastic. Billions over billions to be 'invested'. To make the life of the taxpayer "safer".
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Old 25th Nov 2010, 15:33
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Well, after all, the Global Warming "Flush your money" scam is over?

From those who know, I have heard this description of the TSA: "Metastasized Postal Workers."

Anything to "Grow the Gubmint", eh?

The vocabulary of the discussion has its roots in the mission profile. Intimidate, don't use logic, we don't pay you to think, etc.

"Profiling" is the one word fault button to close down the discussion. Likewise "Racist", "Nut Job", "Tin-Foil Hat", etc. It is the vocabulary (always) of those in authority who wish to have Power, then more, and More. Polarize the discussion, foreclose criticism.

"Psychopath" is off target. The word one uses is "Sociopath", to define those who can together start Wars, Revolutions, etc. Economy of scale is to be avoided in the Political game book, for it is sheer numbers that can gather the authority to trap the population into submissiveness. Six Assassins could have neutralized Saddam. No money in that. Anyone else see a pattern? Now where's my "tinfoil Hat?".


Last edited by bearfoil; 25th Nov 2010 at 15:45.
Old 25th Nov 2010, 18:47
  #56 (permalink)  
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I am no longer certain that this is about certain people making money, or abusing the system, or making pax feel safer, or any of that.

Someone pointed out that in the time since 9/11, we've had 400,000 deaths on the road, 150,000 deaths by handgun, X00,000 deaths from cancer, aids, etc. etc. etc., thousands dieing in foreign wars, etc. etc. etc. The economy is in the tank, millions have lost their homes - worldwide, jobs are still moving overseas, from first world countries to third world countries, at an alarming rate. Countries like China now have incredible economic power - countries that are are not entirely stable. Etc. Etc. Etc

And what are we focused on? invasive searches in the airport.

How interesting that someone, somewhere, or some group of someones have managed to get the public to believe that the governments are "protecting" us by having us go through this screening process at the airport. !Whoopee!

Think about this, next week, some terrorist is going to have a fake bomb in his rectum, and in a month we're going to have cavity searches at the airport, and the government will say they are justified in doing it.

As soon as it's "accepted" at the airports, they'll start doing it on the subway.

The similarities between what's happening and what has happened in the past are scary.
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Old 26th Nov 2010, 14:49
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Sanity has prevailed; the following from IFALPA today:-

The U.S Transportation Security Administration (TSA) has revised its policy, introduced earlier this month, on Advanced Imaging Technology (AIT) and ‘pat-down’ procedures for airline pilots, attendants and passengers.

ALPA International worked tirelessly over several days with the Department of Homeland Security, TSA and other government agencies to get the policy concerning pilots reversed, and this has now been achieved.

All airline pilots in uniform, including non-U.S nationals, with airline identification, will now be subject to screening by walk-through metal detectors at all security checkpoints, as was the case before the new policy was adopted. They will not be required to be screened by AIT or intrusive physical ‘pat-downs’.
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Old 26th Nov 2010, 15:42
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Originally Posted by Johnny767
We (Pilots) don’t need nail clippers, to take over the Aircraft
Not if there is an FAM seated in the jumpseat pointing a gun at your head! Time to have one in the cockpit I think, since as you pointed out, pilots are a security risk even without nailclippers. FAMs could be trained to land a plane on the nearest airfield if they have to shoot both pilots for security reasons.

In the past, there have been deliberare crashes caused by airline pilots (although without terrorist background I think), so the danger is real. And there is no doubt Al Quaeda will try this route.

Now you may argue that pilots are essential to flying a plane - but so are paying passengers! So there is absolutely no reason why pilots should be trusted any more an ordinary pax, sorry.
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Old 26th Nov 2010, 16:19
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Ah but then you'd need a second FAM in case the first FAM gets been "turned" and shoots the pilots...and then of course.........

So there is absolutely no reason why pilots should be trusted any more an ordinary pax, sorry.
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Old 26th Nov 2010, 16:21
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Why would anyone bother to try to coerce a crewmember? How many rampers, fuelers, cleaners, etc have daily access to the "secure" areas with NO screening?
I don't know how it works on airports in the usa but here at ams everybody gets screened, rampers cleaners fuelers etc. I myself am an ground engineer and have to go through security everytime, even my lunchbox is suspect. But when i am through i get my toolkit and have access to all kinds of materials to do some damage if i wanted to. So why can't i take a nailclipper with me but in my toolkit i have a leatherman spanners wrenches etc
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